TigersUnited EDITORS NOTE:
This section has not been organized and edited at this point.
There are over 300 pages of collected List E-Mails to be edited and coded, and we did not want to hold up the TigersUnited Site release until everything was 100%. Consequently, some sections are NOT in the shape we finally intend.
If our search engine is operable, you will be able to find any specific information you will need. These pages will be replaced with edit sections, with proper Table of Contents and hot-links, as the become available from our overloaded section editors.
Please bear with us on these 'roll-out' challenges.
These entries were collected, over a three year period, for my personal use, they reflect my own choices as to what I kept for my possible future needs. My name appears far too often due to this fact. Please accept the value it may contain, in spite of what might appear to be too many repetitions of my own questions and answers.
The comments contained herein are the sole opinions of the contributors, and should be used with appropriate consideration of possible errors of omission, commission, or lack of sufficient information.
Allan Connell, Section Editor.
Section A - Cooling System
COOLING AND ENGINE BAY AIR-DUCTING (10)
Date: Jul 1999
From: Allan Connell
From: Tom Hall
From: Tim Ronak
(Allan) Frankly, if the most you got up to is 210, you are doing just fine. As Tom Hall and others more experienced than myself will tell you, in tests Ford conducted years ago, Ford V8's run more efficiently, economically and with less wear in an operating range of 190 to 210 degrees. You might begin to get concerned (IMHO,) when the operating temp approaches 220 degrees. The general rule is this: if it ain't puke'in coolant, you are OK. THAT is your sign that the car is overheating. In my experience, I have only started to puke coolant when the car reaches 230 degrees. Also, if you dribble a bit of coolant after stopping the car, that is alright as well, because it is normally associated with residual heat build-up after you shut down the engine. I think in this case you will find that the temperature of the block & heads is approaching or in excess of 230 degrees. My Tiger typically runs in the range of about 185 to 205 and it can be awful darn hot this time of the year in San Diego. I run a 180 degree thermostat and am thinking about going up to a 190 degree if you can believe it. If you REALLY want to tear into it and make some modifications, you can but based on your description, I personally do not think it necessary. In my limited experience, all the electric "pusher" fan gives you is a few precious minutes of breathing room....when I used it in the past, it did not seem to make a great deal of difference. A couple of things to check:
First, check to see that you are getting the proper readings from your sending unit to the gauge. Stu Brennan did some very extensive testing and came up with some really valuable data that you can find at: http://www.corpdemo.com/tiger/techtips/gageohms.html.
Second, do you have an old original core or a new more modern core? The original radiator core is three rows of tubes, staggered 2-1-2. Why they consider this a three row core, I know not. Newer more efficient cores are 4 rows of tubes with 14 fins per inch spacing. Count the fins per inch and
this is likely to give you a good point of comparison. When I went to change the core in my stock radiator, Steve Laifman made the excellent suggestion to go to a Modine "H Core" and I have been exceptionally pleased with the results. However, it is my opinion that one should try just about
everything first before going this route. A "stock" Tiger should be fine....it is when you get into highly modified engines is when you begin to run a bit warmer. Third, are you running a "stock" fan blade and do you have the shroud in place? In my opinion and experience, flex fans are
really worthless, and if not of good quality, rather dangerous. If you are lucky, the PO changed to the Ford "Canadian" (shall we name it for Theo and Tim :) ) Six-blade fan. This is the BEST fan blade to utilize as noted by Dick Barker, Tom Ballou and many others. You can tell easily if you have this fan as it has aluminum fins riveted to a steel hub. The number stamped on the fan blades is: CF-09DE-A. The final and a bit more intrusive steps are to pull the thermostat and check it's rating. You should be running NO LESS than a 180 degree thermostat. Going lower WILL NOT increase cooling, and may in some circumstances hurt cooling. You might also check to see how
long ago the radiator was pulled and boiled or rodded out....that is if you have access to receipts. Recall the post recently from a lister (sorry, I cannot remember who,) that when he pulled is radiator, he found it almost 80% blocked? This is a relatively cheap and easy diagnostic. As an endnote, I agree with Bob Palmer on the Water Wetter. I have not really noticed a difference.
If it is not puking, it is not overheating. To quote others wiser than myself, "....if'n it ain't broke, don't fix it." Sorry to all for the long post. And yes, I am confident that some of my opinions will run contrary to others. That's one of the reasons I like this list so much. I think I have expended my allotted time for the year.....back to lurking.
(Tom) Reply to Steve Laifmans original comment of: Thanks for the rubber lips at the top and bottom of the radiator thought. Good idea. Have you had any experience with the lower valance duct guide to the radiator support bottom? I'm just talking about the air duct holes, not the entire valance. Thought it would be best to go between the jack mounts, but struggling with connection to the valance. Maybe an "H" shaped piece of rubber, instead of a mechanical fit, and rely on the jack mount and radiator support for the mechanical? Know of any "H" rubber? Do you think that any of these engineering improvements, including modest ducts and fans, take the car out of "stock" class? Hope to see you at Big Bear!"
(Toms Reply) Steve, Lets start with my basic premise, If somebody else built it, I can improve it. Ok, Ok, I must have left something "stock" in my trail through life, but it's really hard to think of an example. "Stock" class is defined as close to "as manufactured" as possible. Since we typically allow LAT options as "full stock", there is some room for changes which for the most part, improve a pretty good set of compromises which is what "stock" really is. The "purity" of this class is always subject to improvement, but you are allowed to make up to seven changes or "personalizations" (over and above LAT options) and still be classified as "stock". This is not to say that the "judges", won't criticize every "change" and subtract concours points. The "professional" restorers have an edge in this market which they promote as best they can. If you look closely at cars prepaired by Paul or Norm or Scott Woerth, the examples really show their experience and their knowledge of what came down the assembly line at Jensen. They know what they are doing in that regard, but I think that this effort does not necessarily provide the maximum benefit to the longevity and enjoyment of the Marque. I respect their restoration products for their attention to detail, and in their way, I think they respect my continuous push for individuality and (hopefully) improvements over stock compromises. I too had a stock Tiger in October 1966. It remained that way for almost a couple of months. The first time I changed the oil and filter, I decided to redesign the oil system. Six design changes later, I had been through metal bellows stainless hose (excessive harmonic resonance), Industrial rubber hose (too stiff, or inadequate clamping), a "big block filter " adaptation which was essentially the same concept as the current SVT-Econoline filter mount, and Earle's/Russell braided stainless/ aluminum fittings with remote filter coolers. I think that the Tiger represents a good set of initial design compromises, as I said before, but that it also represents a really good base for a broad spectrum of modifications or personalizations that can make the cars unique to their owners and their owners personalities. In my humble opinion, this is not a frequent situation in the automotive world. A good basic platform to start from is still an elusive goal. Any half competent technician can squeeze a (pick any double cubic inch displacement engine) big motor into a small car, but the first corner at speed will separate the men from the boys. For a 40 year old basic design, the vehicle still makes a pretty good showing across the board in this aspect. If we leave the "stock" class to the "pros", We still have the personalized class for almost everything but fender flares, 18" tires, 351's, fuel injection, and similar state of the art modifications. The major current point of discussion related to personalized vs. modified class is wheel diameter. There is a lot of interest in allowing wheel diameters up to 15" in personalized class (they are not currently allowed). The change is very popular and allows much more flexibility in tire selection. I would expect this change to gain momentum as 13" tires become even rarer than they are today. As far as ducting, sealing, more effective radiators, electric fans and other improvements that enhance the enjoy ability and functionality of the car, I see no reason to severely restrict these modifications or to threaten the loss of perceived value or "stock" classification. It's so much easier to enjoy a performance automobile that doesn't threaten you with overheating, loss of coolant or other negative reactions. Its kind of like the 5 speed transmission. Until its arrival, everyone was satisfied with the top loader (still a great design). After you've driven a 5 speed Tiger, you wonder why anyone would want less (better gas mileage, less engine noise and wear). In short, it reduces the original compromises. nuff said, Tom
(Question from Scott ?? lost last name and email) While driving in the heat today my Tiger hit 210 degrees, the electric fan came on and I got out of traffic and moved to cool the engine down. Going back over the Vincent Tomas bridge cooled the car, but wasn't where I wanted to be. I remember the Vette crowd talking about something called "Redline Water Wetter" to cool C4 Vettes down. Added to the radiator, it is supposed to transfer heat better and drop temperatures 15-20 degrees over regular coolant. Anybody used this stuff before? Does it work? Is it ok to use?
(Reply from Tim) We used Redline water wetter in our GT-1 car and it worked very well for
us mostly in preventing boil over by raising the boiling point but we also saw a 5 degree reduction in engine temp. While I don't currently have a problem with cooling if I do I will first try Water Wetter to try to get it solved then I will move to more substantial corrections. In trying to solve our cooling problem I found out a lot about cooling systems and air ducting and how to get the car to run cool. Has anyone out there tried a bib under the center of the rad to "pull" air through the rad? This is what they do on ALL new cars, this is that flexy plastic thingy under your car that rubs on
all of the parking curbs when you pull too close. We did this on the GT-1 car and reduced engine temp by 25 degrees (220 to 195). It works by creating negative pressure behind the rad at moderate to high speed thereby sucking air through and down under the engine. It prevents air from stacking under the hood. Those that have had there hood pop open on the highway will know what I mean. I am going to try it on mine if I can do it with out cutting anything.
(Tim) I just want to clarify that I am not talking about a spoiler at all as that will not do too much to create negative pressure behind the rad in fact it may actually do no good if the air is stacked up behind the rad and engine bay. The idea that we used is a vertical bib that is located directly
beneath the radiator pointing straight at the ground. Look at any late model GM car and you will see what I mean. The bib acts more like a scraper than a spoiler or scoop as it drags along just above the ground at speed it creates a pseudo vacuum just behind it which helps pull air through the rad and out of the engine bay. The amount of effect is determined by the surface area of the bib. On our camero it is the full width of the engine bay and hangs down from the radiator support about 7" with only about 4" visible below the lowest point of the cars body. With all of the talk about overheating I thought that it may be that some guys were getting to hot at speed in which
case this would help. But as James Barrett points out, it only helps if you are moving and if the problem is stop and go then not much you can do besides a more efficient, or larger capacity rad and electric fans. At this point I have absolutely no problem with cooling but that may change as the HP numbers and displacement start to increase.
(Tim) My latest experience with the Tiger is that it cools just fine (170 degrees at ambient air of 78 degrees) with a clean radiator and a decent fan such as the Canadian 6-blade fan. The tricks of solving cooling problems seem to be when one of the original components is providing only marginal service.
|Anyone who would like to contribute to this effort should contact us at Editor E-Mail. Thank you.|