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Section L - Wheels and Tyres
Page 8
Subject: Re: Ackerman Angle
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:07:58
-0700
From: Bob Palmer
To: "Doug Mallory",
Larry Wright
CC:
Doug, Larry,
I think I know what you meant to say Doug, maybe not, but what I think you meant was "positive caster", which you get by adding shims to the rear upper A-arm "shock tower" mounting bolt. I might note, as others have previously, that the Shop Manual does not condone any adjustment in caster, only camber, because they use a double shim that fits over both the front and rear A-arm bolts. HOWEVER, many - perhaps even most of us have ignored this and adjusted camber and caster separately without ill effects (at least any I've heard of). Now, everyone probably has a little different recipe for their own favorite setup, but I have been running with -1.75 degrees of camber and find it works out about right for my mostly street driving. I'm actually a little surprised I don't wear the insides of my front tires more, but it works for me with 205/50-15 tires on 7.5" wide rims. I wouldn't recommend quite this much
camber for most people, but anywhere in the -1.0 to --1.5 degrees is probably going to work pretty well and not cause very uneven wear. Besides, how many people ever actually wear out their tires anyway?? Any tire over four or five years old should
probably be retired regardless of how much tread is left. What most of us need are tires with a tire wear index of about 80. ;-)
TTFN,
Bob
At 04:20 PM 8/11/99 -0400, Doug Mallory
wrote:
>I put in as much neg. caster as I can get. This is done by adding more
>shims to the back a frame bolt than the front.
>The settings I gave are for track only and your tire wear will suffer if you
>run these numbers on the street.
>
>Doug
>-----Original Message-----
>
From:Larry Paulick
>To:Doug Mallory
>Cc:
>
Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 7:07 PM
>
Larry Paulick
>Subject: Re: Ackerman Angle
>
>
> >Thanks Doug. What other alignment specs do you use. I will use this
> >for street and autocross.
> >
> >Car is ground up restoration, with new braking system, 5.0L and T-5,
> >etc. Car out of body shop is 3 weeks, after 3 months of work.
> >Rebuilding everything.
> >
> >Larry
> >
Robert L. Palmer
UCSD, Dept. of AMES
619-822-1037 (o)
760-599-9927 (h)
rpalmer@ucsd.edu
rpalmer@cts.com
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999
07:07:32 -0700
From: (Armand & Lorie Ritchie)
To: Mark Fridenstine
> * Help Folks:
> * I'd like to know where is the best and/or reasonable place and
> cost to purchase stock tires for a 1A. Dunlop or Goodyear (made in
> England), I believe this is correct. All responses are greatly
> appreciated.
> * Thanks, Mark
Mark use this search engine:
www.dogpile.com
and just type in "Vintage Tires" you will get a
couple of places I'm sure
that have what you are looking for.
regards
ritchie@mcn.org
Armand & Lorie Ritchie
From:Larry Paulick
To:
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 ,
8
Right again Steve. I have 195/205 15" 50 series on Panasports. The
tires are Potenza Z rated that is highly praised by Porches, and by several Tiger owners who autocross.
I had poor tires on a 87 Vette that had been mildly worked over, and every time I was in the rain, I was on pins and needles.
The Sl500 had Goodyear, which I changed to Michelin (spelling) and they are great in the wet. Used them on a wet skid pad at Summit Point raceway during 2 day Performance Driving course, and both I and the Instructor were verrrrrrry impressed. I could not get the tires to break and spin the car.
All other cars were 85-99 Mercedes, and Instructor and other Mercedes owners could not believe how SL and these tires handled. Car would get to the edge, but instead of rear breaking loose, the car went into a 4 wheel drift. After letting off the gas, it would catch itself and continue.
Made me feel real good. Money well spent. Tiger should not see but little wet weather.
BTW, Tire Rack and a great web site to compare tires, and various characteristics.
Larry
Subject: Re: belhousing needed
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:01:12 -0700
From:
To: Theo Smit"
CC: Bellis
"Tiger's Den"
References:
1
Tigers,
I can see I should have opened up my file on the Panasport series, and given ALL the information on what they provide for a Tiger that was made for a Tiger. Theo's caution not withstanding, the tire sizes listed, and their diameters, come from the manufacturers.
Panasport Fronts, as recommended by Panasport: FS-14 x 6 wheel: 4 x 108 B.C. (Bolt Circle); 22 mm offset.
Panasport Rear, as recommended by Panasport: FS-14 x 7 wheel: 4 x 108 B.C.; 17 mm offset.
These take about 2 weeks to special order, and I have had quotes from $141 to $189, including mounting, stems, spinner, Guard Nuts and balancing - with tire purchase for the LOWEST cost, and $40/wheel for the HIGHER quote.
Tires:
I was looking at the Pirelli P6000 Veloce H rated. My thinking was for 175/65x14 front, for easier steering (23.0 inch rolling diameter) at prices from $72 to $50. The lower cost was with the lower cost for the wheels and installation!!
For the rears (and could be used on the front as well, if your arm is strong) 195/60/14 at 23.2 inch rolling diameter. These sizes were recommended by Panasport as causing no interference, and are near the correct diameter. The prices ranged from $82 to $60, and again, the lowest price went with the lowest price wheel and free installation and hardware.
Range of total price (as combined above) ranged from $784/installed set to $1062
(plus sales tax). A difference of $278. These prices are from retail stores in Southern California, and include store delivery and installation.
These are all first quality wheels and tires (no blems or seconds). Other tire sizes and brands will vary, but not by much in this performance range.
I did not price the 15" wheels, as the 50 series tires required did not have the same visual appeal, to me. The 14's were not easily distinguishable from current look. The 15 wheels are a bit "heavier" looking, and the tires are obviously low-low profile for the period.
I decided to stick with my 13" American Racing 8 spoke dealer installed set, as they are rare and unique, although those Panasports are mighty pretty.
Would like an excellent American Racing 8 spoke with threaded spinner cap as spare, if any are available.
Hope this helps,
Steve
--
Steve Laifman B9472289 >
Subject: Re: busted stud...
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999
From: Larry Paulick
To:Bob Palmer
CC:
Colin Cobb
Tigers Mailing List ,
Alpines List
Colin, if you are using the lugs with a lubricant, like oil or anti seize, then you lower the torque by the % recommended for the type of lubricant you are using. The OEM specs for torque are for dry lugs.
When I went to the track, in another car, the Tech Officials were ready to torque to 60 ft-lb, until I told them that I had anti seize on the lugs, and they backed off to 45 ft-lbs.
While 1/2" lugs are better, 7/16" should do, unless you have a really stressful situation, as in racing with larger tires/more rubber on the road.
If you can drill a hole in the backing plate, you can use a dead blow hammer, and the lugs with pop out after several blows. I did it to both rear wheels, with no problem. Same is true for installing new lugs.
BTW, get new lugs from Curt or Rick, before hand, as the Tiger lugs are really hard/impossible to find.
Larry
Larry Paulick
Subject: Alignment
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:51:37
-0500
From: "Doug & Rett Leithauser"
To: Larry Wright
CC:
"Tiger List"
A few general comments on alignment. Camber, within about 1 1/2 degrees has litle effect on tire wear, at least a lot les that those wheel spinning starts & tire squealling corners do, but in general negative camber will give you stronger cornering grip, and positive camber will promote understeer. I tend to put 1/2 to 1 degree of negative camber in all my vehicles when I finally get around to aligning them, to get the most cornering grip without causing one sided tire wear.
Caster has no effect on tire wear in a straight line, but turns into negative camber as you turn the steering away from center. Positive caster tends to make the steering self centering and helps increase cornering grip by giving more negative camber in a corner. Positive caster also makes the steering heavy.
Toe, whether you choose in or out, should be very near zero. A little bit goes a long way, I would not have more than 1/8" toe in or out, even 1/8" is a lot. For a street driven Tiger I would have as little toe in as the "one turn only" tie rod set up will allow. I would go with camber at -1 degree, as much caster as I could get, but the same side to side to prevent pulling. I would want it toed in, not out, for high speed stability.
Caster will cause the car to pull to the side with the least positive caster, but the car will pull to the most positive camber. It's important that both sides be pretty near the same, but many street cars are set up to have a slight pull to the left to lead into the road crown, usually a 1/2 degree of camber difference. Toe in will promote stability, but toe out will give faster cornering response at the expense of stability. No one setting will please everyone.
And you thought there was an easy answer.
Doug Leithauser
Jim _____<
Bill Hagedon
In a message dated 5/20/99 7:52:42 AM
Pacific Daylight Time,
SLaifman@SoCal.RR.com writes:
> I do believe that Bo has resurrected a treasure for us all to enjoy. As
> far as wheels are concerned, I am not certain how Ken originally
> presented the car, but most of us know that the production model did not
> offer the wire wheel option of the Alpine. The V-8 would rip the spokes
> from the rim, and strip the tiny spline in short order. Ken was a first
> class mechanic, car designer, and race driver. It is very possible for
> him to have made that decision, but not having seen pictures of the
> original, I don't know.
Back in Sept 1998, when there was a discussion on this list of the American Racing "Silverstone" wheels as used on the Miles prototype, I posted a story from Ian Garrard to the list (see Mark Olson's archives for the complete thread). Published in the September 1977 issue of the STOA newsletter, Ian's letter specifically stated that the car originally had wire wheels. Since memories are obviously pretty short, here is the letter again:
Listers,
My neighbor has a set of those finned aluminum wheels that came stock on late 80's through early 90's Mustang 5.0 GT's. I think they may be 15x8 or 15x7. They will bolt right on to a Tiger if you run a 50 series tire. They have old Goodyear 60 series Eagles on them now. He wants them out of his garage, anyone interested ? He'd let them go for cheap. Let me know, I'll pass on all offers. Wheels are located in north San Diego county. They are in perfect condition. The rubber is just about gone.
Mike
Subject: RE: brake
solutions/wheel
spacers
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999
16:50:53 -0600
From: Theo Smit
Depending on the wheels, there might be a reason why wheel spacers would be required. I think there are some wheels around that would touch the rear drums near the edges, leaving an air gap between wheel and drum at the lugs. The right spacer would fill the gap, and allow tightening of the lug nuts without anything expensive happening. I heard of this happening many years back, but I don't remember what marques or wheels were involved.
Stu
Subject: Re: Porous wheels
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999
12:33:49 -0700
From:
To: Tim Ronak>
CC:
"Tiger's Den"
References:
1
Tim,
The air seeping thru the aluminum wheels is really due to a poor porous casting. Easy cure - use tubes, or wire wheel type inner liners, or rubbery coatings to seal small fissure paths.
Of course this doesn't alter any strength loss a real crack may have caused. A clear coat over a powder coat is the usual technique for the new wheels, and they look pretty good. See the Panasport. The new factory ones they choose to chrome are of much better quality than our early technology cast wheels, or after market cheapies, and their costs reflect this. Pretty flashy for a sixties car anyway.
Well, anyone is entitled to their taste. Thanks for the hints on clear-coating old wheels, though, and the caution about racing heat.
I have some stuff called Never Dull I got at Pep Boys. It comes in a can, and has cotton soaked in a chemical. Tear of a wad and rub it on the polished aluminum and in really shines it up with no abrasive action, or hard rubbing. Shouldn't be used on the non polished cast surfaces, though.
Steve
--
Steve Laifman
>
B9472289
Subject: Re: tires
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 14:33:55
-0700
From: Bob Palmer
To: Windsor Owens
"' '"
Windsor,
I must say, for a guy with your name, it's about time you put a Ford small block in your garage. ;-)
Now, to your question, first off, I paid about twice about nine months ago more than what the AVS's are going for now. Such a deal!! You don't talk about your rims, but you should match the tire width to the rim width. Don't make the mistake of putting too much tire on a skinny rim. This is a prescription for disaster. Especially, don't put the too_big_tires_on_too_skinny_rims on the back. Radials have a lot of sidewall flex, plus the slip angle will be somewhat greater too. This will make your car's handling very twitchy and perhaps unpredictable under extreme circumstances. Now, maybe your rims are wider in back, which if this is the case, ignore the preceding comments. The rims in front should have the maximum possible rear spacing. This is both for appearance and for handling and driveablility. (It's good to have the steering axis intersect the road not too far inboard the center of the tire contact patch.) The problem with 13" rims is you can't get as much negative offset as with 15" rims. Also, as I'm sure your aware, the tire choices for 13" rims is next to zip. What would probably be best up front are 195's, but alas, they don't have them in this size. Assuming your rims are wide enough to handle the 205's, then you might consider adding a little more negative camber up front. Having -1 degree camber will probably tuck those puppies right under the fender and might even improve your cornering too.
I have to agree with Bob "Herbeam" Willis' suggestion to "get some new wheels", although I would advise 15" for the reasons I've given.
My two cents for today,
Bobb
At 09:55 AM 8/9/99 -0700, Windsor Owens
wrote:
>I need some new tires for my tiger (13"). I am very fond of Yokohamas,
> I've had good luck with them on my BMW & Porsche in the past. Tire
> rack has some AVS intermediates available in 185/60/13 and 205/60/13.
> The 205's are definetely going on the back. While 205's will fit on the
> front, they stick out beyond the fender line and look stupid. For that
> reason, I'm inclined to go with 185's up front. But they sound awfully
> skinny, and I don't want the car to understeer anymore than it already
> does (has 205's all around, currently). Any thoughts out there?
>
>Windsor
Robert L. Palmer
UCSD, Dept. of AMES
619-822-1037 (o)
760-599-9927 (h)
rpalmer@ucsd.edu
rpalmer@cts.com
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