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Section L - Wheels and Tyres
Page 10

Subject: Re: tires

Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 14:33:55
-0700

From: Bob Palmer
To:Windsor Owens

Windsor,

I must say, for a guy with your name, it's about time you put a Ford small block in your garage. ;-)

Now, to your question, first off, I paid about twice about nine months ago more than what the AVS's are going for now. Such a deal!! You don't talk about your rims, but you should match the tire width to the rim width. Don't make the mistake of putting too much tire on a skinny rim. This is a prescription for disaster. Especially, don't put the too_big_tires_on_too_skinny_rims on the back. Radials have a lot of sidewall flex, plus the slip angle will be somewhat greater too. This will make your car's handling very twitchy and perhaps unpredictable under extreme circumstances. Now, maybe your rims are wider in back, which if this is the case, ignore the preceding comments. The rims in front should have the maximum possible rear spacing. This is both for appearance and for handling and driveablility. (It's good to have the steering axis intersect the road not too far inboard the center of the tire contact patch.) The problem with 13" rims is you can't get as much negative offset as with 15" rims. Also, as I'm sure your aware, the tire choices for 13" rims is next to zip. What would probably be best up front are 195's, but alas, they don't have them in this size. Assuming your rims are wide enough to handle the 205's, then you might consider adding a little more negative camber up front. Having -1 degree camber will probably tuck those puppies right under the fender and might even improve your cornering too.

I have to agree with Bob "Herbeam" Willis' suggestion to "get some new wheels", although I would advise 15" for the reasons I've given.

My two cents for today,

Bobb

At 09:55 AM 8/9/99 -0700, Windsor Owens
wrote:
>I need some new tires for my tiger (13"). I am very fond of Yokohamas, I've
>had good luck with them on my BMW & Porsche in the past. Tire rack has some
>AVS intermediates available in 185/60/13 and 205/60/13. The 205's are
>definetely going on the back. While 205's will fit on the front, they stick
>out beyond the fender line and look stupid. For that reason, I'm inclined
>to go with 185's up front. But they sound awfully skinny, and I don't want
>the car to understeer anymore than it already does (has 205's all around,
>currently). Any thoughts out there?
>
>Windsor

Robert L. Palmer
UCSD, Dept. of AMES
619-822-1037 (o)
760-599-9927 (h)
rpalmer@ucsd.edu
rpalmer@cts.com

Subject: Re: Ackerman Angle

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:07:58
-0700

From: Bob Palmer
To: "Doug Mallory"
Larry Wright
CC:

Doug, Larry,

I think I know what you meant to say Doug, maybe not, but what I think you meant was "positive caster", which you get by adding shims to the rear upper A-arm "shock tower" mounting bolt. I might note, as others have previously, that the Shop Manual does not condone any adjustment in caster, only camber, because they use a double shim that fits over both the front and rear A-arm bolts. HOWEVER, many - perhaps even most of us have ignored this and adjusted camber and caster separately without ill effects (at least any I've heard of). Now, everyone probably has a little different recipe for their own favorite setup, but I have been running with -1.75 degrees of camber and find it works out about right for my mostly street driving. I'm actually a little surprised I don't wear the insides of my front tires more, but it works for me with 205/50-15 tires on 7.5" wide rims. I wouldn't recommend quite this much camber for most people, but anywhere in the -1.0 to --1.5 degrees is probably going to work pretty well and not cause very uneven wear. Besides, how many people ever actually wear out their tires anyway?? Any tire over four or five years old should probably be retired regardless of how much tread is left. What most of us need are tires with a tire wear index of about
80. ;-)

TTFN,

Bob

At 04:20 PM 8/11/99 -0400, Doug Mallory
wrote:
>I put in as much neg. caster as I can get. This is done by adding more
>shims to the back a frame bolt than the front.
>The settings I gave are for track only and your tire wear will suffer if you
>run these numbers on the street.
>
>Doug
>-----Original Message-----
>
From: Larry Paulick
>To:Doug Mallorybr> >Cc:

>
Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 7:07 PM
>

Subject: Re: Ackerman Angle
>
>
> >Thanks Doug. What other alignment specs do you use. I will use this
> >for street and autocross.
> >
> >Car is ground up restoration, with new braking system, 5.0L and T-5,
> >etc. Car out of body shop is 3 weeks, after 3 months of work.
> >Rebuilding everything.
> >
> >Larry
> >

Robert L. Palmer
UCSD, Dept. of AMES
619-822-1037 (o)
760-599-9927 (h)
rpalmer@ucsd.edu
rpalmer@cts.com

Subject: Re: Ackerman Angle

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:07:58
-0700

From:Bob Palmer
To: "Doug Mallory",
Larry Wright
CC:

Doug, Larry,

I think I know what you meant to say Doug, maybe not, but what I think you meant was "positive caster", which you get by adding shims to the rear upper A-arm "shock tower" mounting bolt. I might note, as others have previously, that the Shop Manual does not condone any adjustment in caster, only camber, because they use a double shim that fits over both the front and rear A-arm bolts. HOWEVER, many - perhaps even most of us have ignored this and adjusted camber and caster separately without ill effects (at least any I've heard of). Now, everyone probably has a little different recipe for their own favorite setup, but I have been running with -1.75 degrees of camber and find it works out about right for my mostly street driving. I'm actually a little surprised I don't wear the insides of my front tires more, but it works for me with 205/50-15 tires on 7.5" wide rims. I wouldn't recommend quite this much
camber for most people, but anywhere in the -1.0 to --1.5 degrees is probably going to work pretty well and not cause very uneven wear. Besides, how many people ever actually wear out their tires anyway?? Any tire over four or five years old should
probably be retired regardless of how much tread is left. What most of us need are tires with a tire wear index of about 80. ;-)

TTFN,

Bob

At 04:20 PM 8/11/99 -0400, Doug Mallory
wrote:
>I put in as much neg. caster as I can get. This is done by adding more
>shims to the back a frame bolt than the front.
>The settings I gave are for track only and your tire wear will suffer if you
>run these numbers on the street.
>
>Doug
>-----Original Message-----
>
From:Larry Paulick
>To: Doug Mallory

>
Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 7:07 PM
>

Subject: Re: Stock original Tires

Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999
07:07:32 -0700

From: (Armand & Lorie Ritchie)
To: Mark Fridenstine

> * Help Folks:
> * I'd like to know where is the best and/or reasonable place and
> cost to purchase stock tires for a 1A. Dunlap or Goodyear (made in
> England), I believe this is correct. All responses are greatly
> appreciated.
> * Thanks, Mark

Mark use this search engine:
www.dogpile.com
and just type in "Vintage Tires" you will get a
couple of places I'm sure
that have what you are looking for.

regards

ritchie@mcn.org
Armand & Lorie Ritchie

Subject: Re: cold air

Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999
17:30:39 -0400

From: Larry Paulick
To:
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 ,
8

Right again Steve. I have 195/205 15" 50 series on Panasports. The
tires are Potenza Z rated that is highly praised by Porches, and by several Tiger owners who autocross.

I had poor tires on a 87 Vette that had been mildly worked over, and every time I was in the rain, I was on pins and needles.

The Sl500 had Goodyear, which I changed to Michelin (spelling) and they are great in the wet. Used them on a wet skid pad at Summit Point raceway during 2 day Performance Driving course, and both I and the Instructor were verrrrrrry impressed. I could not get the tires to break and spin the car.

All other cars were 85-99 Mercedes, and Instructor and other Mercedes owners could not believe how SL and these tires handled. Car would get to the edge, but instead of rear breaking loose, the car went into a 4 wheel drift. After letting off the gas, it would catch itself and continue.

Made me feel real good. Money well spent. Tiger should not see but little wet weather.

BTW, Tire Rack and a great web site to compare tires, and various characteristics.

Larry

Subject: Re: belhousing needed

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:01:12 -0700

From: >
To: Theo Smit
CC:
Bellis,
"Tiger's Den"
References:
1

Tigers,

I can see I should have opened up my file on the Panasport series, and given ALL the information on what they provide for a Tiger that was made for a Tiger. Theo's caution not withstanding, the tire sizes listed, and their diameters, come from the manufacturers.

Panasport Fronts, as recommended by Panasport: FS-14 x 6 wheel: 4 x 108 B.C. (Bolt Circle); 22 mm offset.

Panasport Rear, as recommended by Panasport: FS-14 x 7 wheel: 4 x 108 B.C.; 17 mm offset.

These take about 2 weeks to special order, and I have had quotes from $141 to $189, including mounting, stems, spinner, Guard Nuts and balancing - with tire purchase for the LOWEST cost, and $40/wheel for the HIGHER quote.

Tires:

I was looking at the Pirelli P6000 Veloce H rated. My thinking was for 175/65x14 front, for easier steering (23.0 inch rolling diameter) at prices from $72 to $50. The lower cost was with the lower cost for the wheels and installation!!

For the rears (and could be used on the front as well, if your arm is strong) 195/60/14 at 23.2 inch rolling diameter. These sizes were recommended by Panasport as causing no interference, and are near the correct diameter. The prices ranged from $82 to $60, and again, the lowest price went with the lowest price wheel and free installation and hardware.

Range of total price (as combined above) ranged from $784/installed set to $1062
(plus sales tax). A difference of $278. These prices are from retail stores in Southern California, and include store delivery and installation.

These are all first quality wheels and tires (no blems or seconds). Other tire sizes and brands will vary, but not by much in this performance range.

These are 16 inch Panasports (see page 2)

I did not price the 15" wheels, as the 50 series tires required did not have the same visual appeal, to me. The 14's were not easily distinguishable from current look. The 15 wheels are a bit "heavier" looking, and the tires are obviously low-low profile for the period.

I decided to stick with my 13" American Racing 8 spoke dealer installed set, as they are rare and unique, although those Panasports are mighty pretty.

Would like an excellent American Racing 8 spoke with threaded spinner cap as spare, if any are available.

Hope this helps,

Steve

--
Steve Laifman B9472289 >

Subject: Re: busted stud...

Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999

From:Larry Paulick
To:Bob Palmer
CC:
Colin Cobb,
Tigers Mailing List ,
Alpines List
References:
1

Colin, if you are using the lugs with a lubricant, like oil or anti seize, then you lower the torque by the % recommended for the type of lubricant you are using. The OEM specs for torque are for dry lugs.

When I went to the track, in another car, the Tech Officials were ready to torque to 60 ft-lb, until I told them that I had anti seize on the lugs, and they backed off to 45 ft-lbs.

While 1/2" lugs are better, 7/16" should do, unless you have a really stressful situation, as in racing with larger tires/more rubber on the road.

If you can drill a hole in the backing plate, you can use a dead blow hammer, and the lugs with pop out after several blows. I did it to both rear wheels, with no problem. Same is true for installing new lugs.

BTW, get new lugs from Curt or Rick, before hand, as the Tiger lugs are really hard/impossible to find.

Larry

Subject: Re: Wheels, Apples, Oranges, and Sour Grapes
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999
From: TigerCoupe@aol.com
To: tigers@autox.team.net
CC: MWood24020@aol.com, <script type="text/javascript"></script>, stuart_brennan@agilent.com
In a message dated 12/30/99 8:49:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
writes:

> You are describing my American Racing "Silverstone" wheels, (so
>marked) that were made in magnesium and aluminum. They were used on
>the Ken Miles original prototype after he tore the spokes out of the wire
>wheels, and by Larry Reed, early Tiger racer and LAT option tester.
>These are 8 spoke sand cast finish with polished rims
Steve

And, in a message dated 12/30/1999
MWood24020@aol.com writes:
> The American wheels have a very different look than the Shelby wheels.
> They have less rim offset and finer, more rounded spokes. They are also
> more desireable to collectors. Weren't the Americans available in 4.5"
> and 5.5" rim widths (in a 13" diameter)? The Shelby's were available in

> 5.5" up to > 7.5." I guess we won't know which is which until some photos
> are scanned...maybe use the same software which created the Tiger
> "limo" and make them 13X11"!
> Mike

And in a message dated 12/30/1999

stuart_brennan@agilent.com writes:
> Are we all talking about the same wheels here? My Westerns have eight
> curved spokes and look sort of like Minilites or Panasports. From the
> pictures I've seen, the wheels on the Miles car, like the ones that Steve
> has, also have eight spokes, but there the similarity ends. The spoke
> shape is significantly different. I also find it interesting to note that
> one source suggests that the Westerns are a copy of the Shelby
> wheels, while another source suggests that Western made the
>Shelby wheels. Anybody know the whole story?
> Stu
**************************************************************

No Stu, I don't think you guys are talking about the same wheels at all. IMHO I don't think the wheels being described are the American Silverstones, but rather are the wheels marketed by Western, Carroll Shelby Enterprises, and others. And I agree with both you and Mike on your observations of the differences between the two wheel styles. When the Shelby wheels were released, they were about the widest, cheapest 13" wheel available, so they were popular with Tigers owners. So much so that in early 1979 the CAT club bought several sets of them from Shelby for resale through the CAT parts department in what was known as "The Great Wheel Deal." This arrangement was struck with Shelby after CAT officials visited the "Carroll Shelby Enterprises wheel factory in Southern California" and saw this wheel "that was almost a dead ringer for a Minilite." The size of the 8-spoke wheels was 13 X 6 inches, the rims were polished, and the centers were shot-peened in either natural aluminum, gold, or a silver-gray speckled paint called "Silvervane." The price, including the CS plastic hub caps and lug nuts was either $34 or $42, depending on the finish. Locally, Allan Connell has a set of the CAT/Shelby "Great Wheel Deal" on his Tiger. Perhaps he could assist us by posting a scan for us to pick over. How about it Allan? Although I can't say who actually manufactured the wheels (note the CAT officials called if the CSE wheel factory), I do recall that there were several companies (including Shelby and Western) which all sold these same wheels, each with their own brand name and logo. And I definitely tend to agree with Mike on his view of Shelby's outsourcing and marketing philosophy. Mike posted the following on this subject: **************************************************************
> I suggested that Western made the Shelby wheels simply because
> they are identical in casting form and I couldn't imagine Shelby
> actually manufacturing wheels. Shelby seemed to outsource
> everything on their cars, from TMC for traction bars to Edelbrock for
> manifolds to Koni for shocks etc. etc. I guess this is a chicken
>and egg kind of deal: which came first, the Shelby wheels or the
> Westerns? If you follow the genesis of any number of popular '60s
> wheels (Cragar, Keystone, LAT 70) you will find that any number of
>dies were run at one manufacturer, sold, run again, sold etc
> I believe the Shelby wheels were not produced at the time of Tiger.
> manufacture. I also believe that Shelby outsourced the production
> and simply labeled them "Shelby" as a means of generating cash
> flow off his name and branding a rim for sale through speed shops
> and Goodyear. I guarantee I bought the "Shelby" minilite type rims
> in the '80s through a discount wheel shop in the East Bay for fitment
> on my 240Z and that the wheels were identical to the "Shelby" minilite
> type rims on my Tiger, except for rim width. I think we are grasping
> at straws here, trying to find some reason to believe that Shelby
> went to the trouble of producing a limited run of wheels specifically
> for the Tiger, which, IMHO, is less than highly unlikely.
> Mike ******************************************************************************

It was exactly this kind of product development and marketing philosophy which gave us many of the LAT options which were developed for Tigers. The "LAT Man," Dick Wheatley, who was Ian Garrard's parts manager for International Automobiles (later, Chrysler International), got together with J.D. McLean (Shelby's parts man) and took advantage of Shelby's existing resources to introduce a line of optional Tiger parts, which were available with Rootes' blessing through it's authorized dealers. It was all part of a "good old boys' network" in the L.A. area which involved companies like Benevides, Buddy Barr, Schroder, Traction Master, Wedge, Belanger, Cragar and othT0�T�W��M>��|�g2�B#�I;��--�92�z� =��g7�2'�jkH�}��B%$w�V82�� c�2p��𩄣xw�䬾��ӱ��cѺ�OI_ɜ3zE�/zDXT֙�� ؗf��g�ڿ~��2w6oY��Tn��4�K��}[;9�E��kR/�� aA��0��Oݦڛ �W��b�g�_��z��7l#zǗ��vr�a�>y?c?��CS��%�A�^l�%n��F+�ag�^�K6�*,��W'j��P�q� �. ��vͣ2�L�M��)T��4�p"��p��y�f�XNP)wW�zL�� /��Ffdg�i�g+�q��2G<�⡂ }p��Ύ]�J��L�gel�F#�_PetLe$��\4�� A@ N��Hh �%��C]��b�t�X�%2]��ȨrJ�7�h�] ��(�mj��w��8��pks�y��TtN�[Zfha�hnlmV��]hd DU�ź�Q;}'s/t��TC�uPc_)�l]�� uY]��h��O&�L�y*��^�=�?� D ��W��:}v��%��.��X��k�u�J��C>Լ_��fb�T� j��; {�tI;��ƴRimN�$1# �&��UZS��