TigersUnited EDITORS NOTE:
This section has not been organized and edited at this point.
There are over 300 pages of collected List E-Mails to be edited and coded, and we did not want to hold up the TigersUnited Site release until everything was 100%. Consequently, some sections are NOT in the shape we finally intend.
If our search engine is operable, you will be able to find any specific information you will need. These pages will be replaced with edit sections, with proper Table of Contents and hot-links, as the become available from our overloaded section editors.
Please bear with us on these 'roll-out' challenges.
These entries were collected, over a three year period, for my personal use, they reflect my own choices as to what I kept for my possible future needs. My name appears far too often due to this fact. Please accept the value it may contain, in spite of what might appear to be too many repetitions of my own questions and answers.
Steve L
The comments contained herein are the sole opinions of the contributors, and should be used with appropriate consideration of possible errors of omission, commission, or lack of sufficient information.
Section Editor - AWAITING VOLUNTEER TO ORGANIZE AND COMBINE.
Section H - Rear Suspension
Page 1
Subject: Re: Tiger Technologies Traction Bars
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 00:29:06, -0500 l VUGQ02A@prodigy.com (MR RAY MCCRARY)
To: Steve Laifman
Steve, The bars fit perfectly, and are far superior to the originals from Traction Master. The originals tend to bend (they are mild steel) and the new ones are of chromoly and have thicker walls. I got the $140 bars with the adjustable heim joints in black powder coat, and They look great. These bars are available in stainless for $190. TT also has chromoly repros of the original bars for $80. How do they work...........I've had my car since 1976, and it has been subjected to both drag racing as well as autocrossing in that time. As a result, I can tell you that a Tiger that is subjected to hard starts, especially if it has a lower rear end gear and posi, REALLY needs traction bars. When I once had the original 260 (over .030, Boss oiling system, and 351W cam, ported 289 heads, F4B and Holley, and headers) used to launch by sidestepping the clutch at 4000 rpm. With 3.31 posi rear, this gave consistent 13.8 second quarter mile times and made for a straight shot off the line. In autocrossing the bars mean NO wheel hop exiting the corners. Now with a "built" 355-cube engine, the car cries out for them. If you have the 2.88 rear and no posi, I'm sure that you've experienced the "shimmy, shimmy, coco bop" under a high power launch. In short, I recommend the bars. Bear in mind that you may have to stay on top of TT to get your shipment. Hope that this answers all your questions. Regards, Ray
Subject: Re: Jeez!
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:11:55 -0600
From: mmeswarb@huntel.net Organization: http://www.huntel.net/mmeswarb
To: Tigers List
References: 1
I think Larry Atkisson from PTC is now making the bolt on traction masters. When I compared my Tiger Mark II springs to Alpine Series V springs, there were subtle differences. Speaking of suspensions, I have never gotten a good solution for a front sway bar. I'd really like to just buy a good one with good mounts if there's one available. Avoid a lot of the technical aspects. But . . . if I have to have something fabricated, it wouldn't be the first time. Time for some Kudos: I am sure most of the left coast folks already know this, but for the rest of you out there, Larry Atkisson is a pleasure to work with and I would recommend his craftsmanship to anyone. While I'm passing out praises, I believe Mike Wood left office somewhat disillusioned. I thought he should know that the rest of the Tiger world, the ones that aren't interested in club politics, appreciated his efforts. I'm sure he doesn't remember, but I met him briefly at the Tiger United in Tahoe. Another great enthusiast. Actually, our Tiger community has a lot of great personalities. Norm Miller, Tom Hall, Paul Reisentz (sp?), Dale Akuszewski, etc, etc. Sorry to digress, but thought this group could use a little positive energy. I'll shut up now, Mark P.S. For a picture of original rivets try http://www.huntel.net/mmeswarb/tiger.html (I think). MWood24020 wrote: (in part)
>
> Steve-
> I have the repro style bolt-on Traction Master type design (boy, that's a mouthful!)
> Keith Queen made them for me. I believe someone else is making them, but I
> can't remember who, someone with PTC.
> . . .If I'm not mistaken, original Tiger and Alpine rear springs are identical.
Subject: Shakle Bushing Replacement
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:39:51 -0800
From: Frank Marrone
To: Tigers List
CC: alpines list
I was able to change the upper spring shakle bushings with out too much trouble. I tried pressing the old bushings out using a long bolt, some spacers and washers but this didn't work. I just ended up bending washers and the outer casing of the bushings. I decided I needed to cut the old bushings outer casing to get them out. I used the torch to heat the inner sleeve on one side, that allowed me to pull the inner sleeve and the rubber out leaving just the outer casing in the frame rail. On the other side the inner sleeve and rubber pulled out without the aide of the torch. I then used a cutting chisel to cut down the length of the outer casing. After I cut about 2/3rds the way down the bushing finally could be beat out the rest of the way. This worked on both sides. The bosses that the bushings are pressed into are pretty hard so there were only a few minor scratches in the holes from the chisel, these I dressed with a file before installing the new bushings. The new bushings went in easy using various length long bolts and appropriate washers and spacers as a poor mans press. I applied a little never seize to the bushings to aid in their insertion. Thanks to list members for ideas that helped make this easier. Frank Marrone MK I Tiger B9471116 marrone@wco.com '97 Crown Vic LX Yamaha Seca 900 (aka XJ900RK) '79 Spitfire '66 Ford LTD '88 Nissan 4WD p'up
Subject: Re: Shakle Bushing Replacement
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:35:41 -0500
From: "Parlee, Brad (ED&C,SLS)"
> To: Frank Marrone
> CC: Tigers List I did the same thing but was afraid to tell anyone. Thought I was to much of a brute. If there is an easy way lets hear it so I can kick myself. Brad Parlee GE ED& Sales District Manager - Florida 8*586-5233 / 407-261-8614 FAX 8*586-5216 / 261-8616 > ----------
> From: Frank Marrone[SMTP:marrone@wco.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 1998 11:39 AM
> To: Tigers List
> CC: alpines@autox.team.net
> Subject: Shakle Bushing Replacement
> > I was able to change the upper spring shakle bushings with out too much
> trouble.
> > I tried pressing the old bushings out using a long bolt, some spacers
> and washers but this didn't work. I just ended up bending washers and the
> outer casing of the bushings. I decided I needed to cut the old
bushings outer casing to get them out. I used the torch to heat the inner
> sleeve on one side, that allowed me to pull the inner sleeve and the rubber out
> leaving just the outer casing in the frame rail.
On the other side the inner sleeve and rubber pulled out without the aide of the torch.
I then used a cutting chisel to cut down the length of the outer casing.
> After I cut about 2/3rds the way down the bushing finally could be beat out
the rest of the way. This worked on both sides. The bosses that the
> bushings are pressed into are pretty hard so there were only a few minor
scratches in the holes from the chisel, these I dressed with a file before
> installing the new bushings. The new bushings went in easy using various length
> long bolts and appropriate washers and spacers as a poor mans press.
I applied a little never seize to the bushings to aid in their insertion.
> > Thanks to list members for ideas that helped make this easier.
> >
> Frank Marrone Marrone MKr B9471116
> marrone@wco.com '97 Crown Vic LX
> Yamaha Seca 900 (aka XJ900RK)
> '79 Spitfire > '66 Ford LTD
> '88 Nissan 4WD p'up
>
Subject: Re: rear springs
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:03:58
From: Bob Palmer
To: Frank Marrone
CC:
References: 1
Frank, et al.,
I had leaves added to my stock springs and the set re-arced and powder coated by E&C Springs in Escondido, CA. Ph. (760) 747-5050. They did a terrific job and it cost so little I can't remember how much. I'm sure there are other good places around, but I can definitely recommend these guys. Don't know if they would UPS them, but probably. There are a lot of ways to go here, including the important questions of how much arc and what spring rate, length of leaves, where to clamp, etc., etc. Bob At 08:04 AM 1/28/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> Larry,
> I've got a set from Dale (I won't attempt the last name this time), PH: 909
>799 2099. They were recommended by Gary W. and others. I hear they are
>originally for some mini-truck application. They look like maybe a leaf
>was removed to turn them into Tiger springs, not sure. Dale lists the
>spring rate at 190 PPI, I don't know how this compares to stock. They have
>a label with the "Betts" brand name and "made in the USA". They are
>advertised as new, not rebuilt. The locating pin on the spring is larger
>than the one on the spring pad on the rear end so the holes on the spring
>pads will need to be enlarged (drilled). The spring leafs are about 1/4"
>narrower than the stock Tiger springs and I am still contemplating if/how
>to add spacers to take up the slack. Dales springs use a small bushing
>(included) at each eye. At $190, Dales springs are probably a little
>cheaper than completely rebuilding a stock set. I can't comment on ride or >performance yet.
> > > >At 06:57 AM 1/28/98 -0500, Larry Wright wrote:
>>Charlie Nichols wrote:
>>> I ordered a set of rear springs from VB
>>> That stands for Very Bad, right?
>>> Now, every time I get a VB catalog, I look through it to see if there's
>>> anything I want to get _from_somewhere_else_, and then throw it out.
>>>
>>>Sounds like rebuilding what's currently under the car is my best bet...
>>
>> Lawrence R. Wright >>Purchasing Analyst
>> Andrews Office Products, Division of USOP
>> PH 301-386-7923 FX 301-386-5333
>> lrw@aop.com
>> UCSD, AMES Dept. rpalmer@ames.ucsd.edu
Subject: Re: rear springs
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:04:08 -0800
From: Frank Marrone
To: "Larry Wright", "TIGERLIST"
Larry,
I've got a set from Dale (I won't attempt the last name this time), PH: 909 799 2099. They were recommended by Gary W. and others. I hear they are originally for some mini-truck application. They look like maybe a leaf was removed to turn them into Tiger springs, not sure. Dale lists the spring rate at 190 PPI, I don't know how this compares to stock. They have a label with the "Betts" brand name and "made in the USA". They are advertised as new, not rebuilt. The locating pin on the spring is larger than the one on the spring pad on the rear end so the holes on the spring pads will need to be enlarged (drilled). The spring leafs are about 1/4" narrower than the stock Tiger springs and I am still contemplating if/how to add spacers to take up the slack. Dales springs use a small bushing (included) at each eye. At $190, Dales springs are probably a little cheaper than completely rebuilding a stock set. I can't comment on ride or performance yet.
At 06:57 AM 1/28/98 -0500, Larry Wright wrote:
>Charlie Nichols wrote:
>
>I ordered a set of rear springs from VB
>That stands for Very Bad, right?
>Now, every time I get a VB catalog, I look through it to see if there's
>anything I want to get _from_somewhere_else_, and then throw it out.
>Sounds like rebuilding what's currently under the car is my best bet...
>Lawrence R. Wright
>Purchasing Analyst
>Andrews Office Products, Division of USOP
>PH 301-386-7923 FX 301-386-5333
>lrw@aop.com
>
> Frank Marrone MK I Tiger B9471116 marrone@wco.com
'97 Crown Vic LX
Yamaha Seca 900 (aka XJ900RK)
'79 Spitfire
'66 Ford LTD
'88 Nissan 4WD p'up
Subject: Re: Rear springs
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:43:32 -0800
From: brockctella@juno.com (Brock C Tella)
To: CEJLNCAR@aol.com
CC: Tigers List
References:
I just replaced my rear springs from Dale Akuszewski (909 799 2099) and they are terrific. 72 Pantera-65 Tiger-96 Thunderbird 4.6 On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:10:46 EST
CEJLNCARwrites:
> I just received VB's "winter special" catalog. They list Tiger rear
> springs $99.95 each.
> Victoria British 1-800-255-0088
> Regards Armand Ritchie
>> I ordered a set of rear springs from VB before Christmas.
>> About 2 weeks later one spring showed up. I called to find
>> out what happened to the other.
>> I was told their supplier quit making them and they at present did not
>> have another source. Probably 2-3 months till they found another
>> supplier. I sent the one spring back as I needed two. I am expecting a refund-we
>> will see how long that takes. If you only need one, I am sure they still have it.
>> Made in England sticker on it, no eccentric bushing on front eye-seemed
>> OK otherwise.
> Charlie Nichols
> CEJLNichcar@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fw: locating rear susp
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 18:43:23 -0700
From: Tom Hall
To: "Rich Atherton"
CC: Tigers List
At 02:11 AM 6/5/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Well, a Jag E-Type rear end is of the exact same period, and could easily handle
>all the HP and torque that any 260, 289 or 302 could put out. Except for the
>Barrett's built 351 Monster! Has anyone done this significant modification. At
>least it’s British !!
>
Rich To answer your question, yes! There are or, were two in the SF Bay area, and one in Atascadero (on 101 between SF & LA). I TACed one of the bay area E conversions last fall. The other one has not been seen for 10 to 15 years. All three were modified 15 to 20 years ago, so this is not a new idea. I fact I got the E-Jag setup the former owner intended for "Blue" when I bought it in 1981. It is still in my back shed in pieces. All three of these conversions used the stock E rear crossmember which makes it much easier to install but leaves the Tiger with quite a "rake" (ok, I'm dating myself). To do the job for the maximum effect, a not insignificant revision of the crossmember and floorpan would be required to arrive at ride elevations and suspension angles that maximize the performance of this effort. This conversion has been praised by the owners but no actual competition has shown an advantage that I know of. If your looking for the best ride, the reduction in unsprung weight is a major step in that direction. If your looking for the fast track on an open track, the live axle with a Griggs type suspension ( Torque arm, 2 bar locating links, Watts link, and sway bar, all fully independent and adjustable, is going to be very difficult to beat. This is approximately what NASCAR uses on all tracks. If you want the best, close to stock, design, use Dan Walters Torque Arm and a low mounted sway bar (below the rear end) or a Watts link to get the roll center down as far as possible.
Tom
Subject: Traction Bars
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:58:44 EDT
From: BMcgu22954@aol.com
To: SLaifman@SoCal.RR.com
Steve, I was able to save the cad file as .bmp Read it through ms paint. You aren't some extremist that doesn't use windows, or are you ?
Bruce
TRACBAR.BMP Name: TRACBAR.BMP Type: Windows BMP Image (image/x-bmp) Encoding: base64
Subject: Re: Traction Bars
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:10:17 EDT
From: BMcgu22954@aol.com
To: SLaifman@SoCal.RR.com
I just gave you a picture of the traction bar itself. The end with the eye goes into the bracket that bolts to the axle. The end with the angle is the end that rests under the spring. What I didn't include is the piece of flat bar (1 1/2 X 4 X 3/8) that goes above the spring. Also needed is two 3/8 - 16 X 2 bolts & lock nuts. Refer to page 63 in "The Book of Norman". I still learning how to do those exploded assembly drawings. AutoCAD readily converts files to .bmp & that's my story ( & I’m sticking to it) Still looking for something that will convert to files to .jpeg Still need something that will read .mime files
Bruce
Editor’s Note: See LAT Options – LAT 6
Subject: Really! Rare option LAT 5-1/2 found
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:25:45 -0400
From: "Larry Wright"
To: "Tigerlist *"
I was getting the Garage Queen back down off the jack stands after reconnecting the exhaust (sounds much better now), and for the first time really _looked_ at my traction bars. I'd always said I had the bolt-on's and left it at that. Well, I had to pop open Norm's book to compare, what I saw didn't look right. The book shows clear pictures of the LAT 5, weld-on bars, and the LAT 6, bolt-on bars; way too different to confuse them. What I have must be LAT 5-1/2. They look exactly like the LAT 5's, attach to the frame, not he spring leaves. However, they are not welded on, they are secured by bolts through the L-shaped bracket, and then through the frame channel. The bolts are long and go all the way up to the top of the channel, thus tightening the bolts tries to compress the channel of the frame; doesn't look too strong but I guess it has held up for +/- 30 years. Anybody else have this set-up? I'll probably switch over to a DWTA anyway. Yesterday we drove down (non-Tiger) to Solomons, MD, to pick out a place to stay during United. The Holiday Inn is out on Route 2-4, right where the two roads split, actually outside of town a wee bit. Found one B&B 1/2-to-3/4 miles away, but right on Rt. 2; too noisy for an insomniac like me. So we're staying a full mile away in a nice Victorian on one of the few back streets in Solomons, and will probably _walk_ the distance twice a day rather than drag the car back and forth (unless they'll loan us the sailboat from their private dock, in which case we'll sail up). The other B&B's were more down towards the tip of the island, too far to walk, IMHO. Also, if you've never been there, the addition of the Rt. 4 bridge has resulted in some wacky traffic patterns, so it's a heads-up driving environment. Please be careful, let's not crumple any Rootes sheet metal while there. We'll be sharing the town, BTW, with "Appreciation Days" some sort of craft festival. Ugh! If anyone on the 'committee' has a flyer or something, I have the address of the visitor's center and they said they would post it there; they already have a poster for another car show 9/20/98. Colin, even though your vegetable-patch post was a mite off-topic even for me, don't worry about the content police. Remember, you have a Delete key, too! :-) I also don't have a problem with the dissertations on heat transfer, so post away, guys. If nothing else, this thread puts "this is the final word because I'm an expert on the subject" type pronouncements in a whole new light. :-) Nah, this type of discussion could add valuably to our knowledge of a key Tiger subject.
Lawrence R. Wright
Purchasing Analyst Andrews Office Products
Division of USOP
PH 301-386-7923
FX 301-386-5333
lrw@aop.com
Subject: Traction Masters
Date: Thur., 10 Sep 1998 08:06:41 -0700
From: Dave Binkley
To:
While surfing the web looking for Traction Masters, I came across a reference to a speed shop in New Jersey that had a bunch of old inventory they were trying to sell off. Included a number of Traction Masters for Fords, Chevy's, etc from the 50's and 60's. I e-mailed him looking for bolt-ons that would work on the Tiger. He got back to me with: 1 set # 9026 SUNBEAM ALPINE SERIES 1-5 1961-68 WELD-ON $45.00 Jim Barzda California Speed and Sport Shop 299 Jersey Ave New Brunswick NJ 08901 (732) 545-0311 (732) 545-0315 Jbarzda@aol.com Speed Equipment * Race Fuels * Custom Accessories * Go Karts So, I'm just passing this along to everyone just in case someone needs them. I don't have a clue if these would work on a Tiger, but I'm sure a number of you on the list will clear that up real quick. Also, some on the list have Alpines. $45.00 for an original pair seems pretty fair to me. BTW, Rick at SS is no longer selling Traction Masters or the bushings. Spoke with him last week. In case anyone wants it, he told me the phone number for Traction Master is 213 382-1131. Dave
NOTE: ANNOTATE, REVISE, ADD OWN MESAGE
Subject: Re: IRS for Sunbeams
Date: Thurs., 29 Oct 1998 16:20:54 EST
From: Carmods@aol.com
To: tigerpb@ids.net, Tigers List
In a message dated 98-10-28 17:17:38 EST, tigerpb@ids.net writes:
> Anyone got a late Model T-Bird/Cougar? They all came with IRS, and the 4 bolt
> wheel pattern matches the Tiger. Might be interesting- they're more plentiful than
> Jags in the boneyard and probably a lot cheaper to buy. Get out the tape
> measure and report back!
Hi Paul,
The late model T Bird/Cougar/Mark VIII use a 5 bolt 110mm pattern. I have redrilled the mounting flange to a 5 bolt 4 1/4 inch pattern which fits 5 bolt Mustang wheels. Also the tread would need to be narrowed by nearly 4 inches to keep the wheels under the fenders that may be possible. I've been able to narrow the tread by 2.75 inches to fit a Cobra Replica and shorten the half-shafts without having to cut new splines. The carriers are aluminum and the brakes are disks. The Mark VIII used aluminum lower suspension arms which are very light and look pretty good. So as you say, those cars are showing up in junk yards and they might be a good choice for a Tiger.
John Logan
Subject: Re: More questions on rear suspension!
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 22:02:09 EST
From: MWood24020@aol.com
To: rdmallory@earthling.net, Tigers List
In a message dated 11/2/98 5:45:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, rdmallory@earthling.net writes:
> I installed the quad shock without much luck. I tried changing the leverage
> point and still had tramp but not as bad. I went to the traction bars for a 65
> Mustang (Weld on) and the problem was cured. But I am running race
> tires and 300+ hp. You might have better luck with the quad shocks.
> Some one makes a weld on kit with the shocks but I don't remember
> who I got them from. (Dale A?)
Barry Schonberger (Team Tiger) has quad-shock kits. I believe he uses Koni "kicker" shocks, originally designed for Fox-platform Mustangs, with the shocks mounted horizontally, going back from the axle housings to the floor pan. This is similar to the Mustang setup used on V8 cars to alleviate axle wind up.
Mike
Subject: Re: inquiry 112398b
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:55:22 -0500
From: Doug Mallory
CC: "TransAtlantic Corporation (E-mail)"
References: 1
"Wright, Larry" wrote:
>
> III) Rear springs Dale? CAT? ??
I had new top leafs made for my stock springs. I had the small eye put on both ends placing the front eye under the spring thus reducing under steer. $25-each
> IV) oversized front swaybar ?? ??
J C Whitney - They are Addco bars and use Dales mounts.
> XI) new rear 2.88 gears ?? ??
2.88 is not for Auto + go at least 3.35 $150
> XII) posi unit ?? ??
Detroit SL (Soft Locker) $450
> XIII) rear axle bearings/seals ?? ??
NAPA
> 5) What kind of Mangafluxing or other "activity" should I perform on the
> remaining parts, and where? (As in what kind of businesses should I be
> looking for to do this.) And is this expensive?
You can buy a die kit for about $100 from the large items and do it your self.
> 6) The "locking" nuts on the ends of the fulcrum pins don't feel
> reassuring in their "locking ability"; anyone try double-nutting these?
The plastic bushings are not supposed to be _too_ tight. I used AN nuts and drilled for safety wire on EVERY THING I did not want to fall off. ( this was a B@#ch on the front suspension bolts)
7) Repeat question: how about ditching the front disc dust shields?
I cleaned mine up powder coated them and put them in a box.
HTH
Doug
Subject: Bolt on Traction bars
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:56:12 EST
From: CAtkisson@aol.com
To: Tigers List For those who are interested. I'm getting ready to produce a second run of bolt on traction bars. They are powder coated, and come with grade 8 bolts. If you are interested let me know by e-mail catkisson@aol.com or phone 206 783-1645 after 5 p.m. PST. Larry Atkisson ADD UPDATE ON TRACTION MASTER
Subject: Re: Traction Bars
Date: 1 Mar 1999 13:41:08 -0600
From: "T Wiencek"
To: "Steve Laifman">Traction Bars 3/1/99
I happen to have a set of those original Traction Master bars, NOS perfect condition, and still in the original T-M box, with the original T-M decal available. These include the original yellowed newspaper they were packed in. Willing to sell to the highest outlandish price. {9->
I will start the bidding at $100.
Tom
--------------------------------------
Date: 3/1/99 11:22 AM
To: T Wiencek
From: Steve Laifman
Bill Gegg wrote:
> I knew if I waited long enough, we would get back to traction bars. I am
> thinking about removing my weld-on bars and converting them so that they
> attach to the front eye of the rear springs. I would appreciate
> ideas/thoughts on the matter.
Bill,
The Traction Master design for the Alpine worked exactly that way. The front pivot welded on to the frame in the area of the front spring eye. The spring eye bolt was used to locate the bracket, which was tacked to the frame. The springs and bolt are removed before completing welding.
In the end, the horizontal bolt that the forward T-M eye fits is exactly beneath the spring bolt, the same distance down as the rear axle support. This gives a parallelogram suspension system that does not cause the axle to try to follow two pivot points, and put strange forces on the springs. This mount is thick steel, with a few notches to clear existing frame steel. Your frame structure in that area looks pretty solid, to my eyes, but reinforcing with extra steel is still a good idea.
I happen to have a set of those original Traction Master bars, NOS perfect condition, and still in the original T-M box, with the original T-M decal available. These include the original yellowed newspaper they were packed in. Willing to sell to the highest outlandish price. {9->
Steve Laifman B9472289
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:23:53 -0800
From: Steve Laifman
To: Bill Gegg
CC: "'Alpine's Peak'", "Tiger's Den"
Subject: Re: Traction Bars
Date: 2 Mar 1999 16:33:24 -0600
From: "T Wiencek"
To: "Steve Laifman"
RE>>Traction Bars 3/1/99 I happen to have a set of those original Traction Master bars, NOS perfect condition, and still in the original T-M box, with the original T-M decal available. These include the original yellowed newspaper they were packed in. Willing to sell to the highest outlandish price. {9-> I will start the bidding at $100. Tom --------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Traction Bars
Date: 3 Mar 1999 11:41:02 -0600
From: "T Wiencek"
To: SLaifman@SoCal.RR.com
RE>>Traction Bars 3/3/99
Thank you for your kind reply. I am sure they are worth more than $140. I would go as high as $200. Please keep me in mind if you decide to sell them. Tom --------------------------------------
Date: 3/3/99 11:08 AM
To: T Wiencek
From: laifman@flash.
Tom, I really wasn't running an auction, but since you sent two messages, I thought I should give you the courtesy of a reply, with my thinking. I am considering a purchase of the new manufacture replicas of the bolt-on bars Larry Atkisson is offering. They cost $140 a set, and are not original, and do not use high strength steel in the tubes, and a welded axle bracket, not forged steel. He has offered to modify my arms to bolt-ons for about $40-$50 bucks. Now, these will fit an Alpine, as well, and may be a way for you to consider. I would think that the only set of brand new old original stock Alpine Traction Masters, still in their box and having that irreplaceable sticker, would be worth more than your offer to the party that wants that originality. Considering the luck some friends have had with the e-bay auctions, I might consider those, or a Tiger/Alpine swap meet, to get a wider exposure for an appropriate price. If a repro bar is $140, and not the original configuration, what would the original be worth? Steve
-- Steve Laifman B9472289
Subject: Re: Request
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 13:30:43 EST
From: MWood24020@aol.com
To: tym@mediaone.net, Tigers List
In a message dated 3/13/99 7:25:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, tym@mediaone.net writes:
<< Does anyone have an idea where I can get parts (hinges, springs, etc., for my trunk? The P.O. installed a hood rod from a Ford Escort. Also, which traction bars, from Traction-Master do I want? I seem to remember a previous discussion recommending the bolt-ons over the weld-ons. >>
Tym- I know that Rick @ Sunbeam Specialties has parted out Alpines in the past and he may very well have the trunk pieces you need. The consensus on traction bars seems to be that the bolt-ons work better and are an easier install. I run them and have been very happy with the results.
Mike
Subject: Re: Ackerman Angle
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:50:39 -0700
From: Bob Palmer
To: larry.p@erols.com
CC: Tigers List
References: 1
Larry, This must be the posting you are referring to:
>On the topic of Tiger steering under hard acceleration (especially with
>positraction). As everyone knows who has a posi unit and has punched their
>Tiger hard enough to break both tires loose while turning, they very quickly
>observe the down side to the Ackermann "skuff" issue. You soon find that
>there is only one tire on the ground that is firmly planted, and it soon
>turns into the pivot point about which your little "Kitty" is spinning (sort
>of like the preverbal "Latch on the Out-house Door" very similar to the
>place for filling ones pants). The first time it happened to me, I did a 360
>in the middle of an intersection and thankfully did not hit anyone or
>anything in the process. It made a believer out of me. NO punches in the
>corners.
>
>Cullen Bennett
>Tempe, Arizona USA
I have a clutch-disk type positraction unit on my Tiger. I installed it about twenty years ago. I've never had quite the experience Cullen had with his, but I can believe a posi can make matters worse if you punch it in a turn hard enough to break both rear tires loose. Without it, you're just spinning the inside tire, which isn't doing much as far as cornering force anyway. This is precisely the reason I put the posi unit in - so I could get more power down through the turns.
Obviously, you can get too much of a good thing though. One of the inherent things about a Tiger with regard to handling is its short wheel base and small polar moment. This factor makes the car more maneuverable, but also means it spins out easier too. The fact that the front wheels are seriously toed-in in a turn probably doesn't help - in any regard. But it seems to me that having the tires toed in tends to make it understeer; i.e., the front end tends to plow in a straight line instead of turning into the corner.
As a result, the Ackerman problem might even mitigate the tendency to 360 in a turn, but I'm not really sure - just speculating. I'm not sure precisely what all the Dale A. "kit" has in it, but I assume a Midget rack (set back 1/2"), and MGB steering arms. This is essentially what I have on mine. I think you will love it. I don't know how much experience you have driving a stock Tiger, but this is definitely a big improvement in every regard - even perhaps in making it less prone to spin out when you break it loose in a corner with a positraction unit, although I think this is always a possibility if you get too carried away in a little car with a great big motor.
I think you need to remember Doug's rule #2 in this regard. ;-)
Let us all know when you get your Tiger back on the road.
Brgds,
Bob
At 09:57 AM 8/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Bob, there was an email from Bob Cullen regarding the sudden break away
>of the rear end on a Tiger with posi, due to the Ackerman Angle problem
>inherent in the Tiger design.
>
>I have installed the Dale A kit on my restoration, not yet finished, and
>have a 3.54 posi, thus the question on whether there is still a problem
>with the rear end breaking away.
>
>Your experience?
>
>Larry
Robert L. Palmer UCSD, Dept. of AMES 619-822-1037 (o) 760-599-9927 (h) rpalmer@ucsd.edu rpalmer@cts.com
Subject: Re: springs
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 07:54:05 -0700
From: Steve Laifman
To: DJoh797014@aol.com
CC: "Tiger's Den"
References: 1
Dave,
Traction Masters is again making Tiger design specific rear bars, in both the weld-on and bolt-on LAT styles. I am using the bolt-on, as I wasn't pleased with the mounting weld area or the different travel arc of the spring and leaf fighting each other for axle motion. They have, I am told, made that weld area design better, but geometrically it puts bending loads on the bar because of the unequal length. Their bars are not expensive and are made of steel
Steve Laifman B9472289
Subject: Re: Traction Master Bolt-ons
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:16:47 -0700
From: Steve Laifman
To: laceyf@crosslink.net
CC: "Tiger's Den"
References: 1 , 2 , and 3
Mark Fridenstine wrote:
>Steve:
> I have a set of Bolt on traction bars I bought form a guy in Wash. State, about a
> year ago. Are they hard to put on by myself, of do I need a mechanic???
> Thanks,
> Mark
Mark,
Not sure whose you bought, but I hope it has not got those heim swivel ball joints, or you have your eye-teeth anchored firmly. I believe Larry Atkisson made a very nice set. On his last run I was ordering some, when he recommended the new Traction Master production run. In either event, installation is not difficult.
There are a few tricks, of course. The New Traction Master design has all four holes in the bottom plate, instead of the original 3. Never understood that original design, but if yours are like that, you have to get longer U-bolts, and trim the excess after, as it goes under the existing plate. The newer design replaces the plate, so the same bolts are fine (if they are in good shape.
You might want to consider a locking type nut. Before you start unbolting those plates, you better jack the car up, put supports on the body, and remove the wheels. The front end of the spring must be changed. BOTH of the straps around the front spring bundle must be turned so that the clamp bolt is on top. These should have rubber between the clamp and the spring pack.
Replace the rubber if it's bad. This is easy enough, as you just remove the bolt, spread the clamp a bit, and rotate it around and re-tighten. You should mount the Traction Master on the U-Bolts before you tighten the forward clamp loosely, so it is just behind where the bar clamp will go.
There is a small plate under the 4 hole original plate. Remember to put it back. The bolt through the springs just goes through the holes in the plates, like normal. Taking the U-Bolts off is easy, but they tend to spread after removal, and may need to have the sides squeezed together to fit back in. A very large clamp, or a very strong friend can help compress it to fit back into the holes. A large slotted pliers may help. The bar should point forward, with the flat part of the front angle able to swing against the front of the spring. If it's the vertical part of the angle, you've got it facing the wrong way. {9->
After you have torqued the U-bolts, then bring the front clamp up to the forward spring, ahead of the spring clamp. Use the bolts supplies (grade 8) and the upper flat piece and lightly put the piece together. I used some rubber gasket around this clamp to prevent metal-to-metal contact, and potential wear, and sharp corner forces at the clamp. Your call. Put the wheels back on, bring the car down, drive around the block a few times, and let it cool down. By this time the springs should be at their normal ride height. Don't jack the car back up again, or you would lose the ride height. Clamp the front bar assembly tightly, then slide the spring clamp forward and tighten it.
You're done.
You may find the ride a bit choppier, and stiffer, but that's because you have effectively made half your spring inflexible. There seems to be less body roll, too. I have adjustable rear Koni shocks, but haven't touched them. They are at the factory setting. Wouldn't be sure which way to turn them, as it seems OK, with maybe less bottomig<,eVYvZ:z0
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