Preface
The fuel system of the Tiger is the source of much frustration and time spent in the garage for many Tiger owners. While this is partially due to the fact that practically no-one leaves it "stock", and there are so many different options available, different usage needs, multiple linked adjustments, and a lot of 'urban legends". It also points to the general lack of accurate knowledge of dimensions, fit, and tuning procedures. The following excerpts from the Tiger Internet mailing list and additional articles point out many potential trouble areas and what the owners did to make design changes, from the original 2 barrel, or fuel pump, or avert or repair problems.
Note that the information presented in these pages represents the opinion of the writers and may or may not actually be representative of the truth. We do try to check for accuracy, though. If you are not comfortable making changes to the electrical system on your car then don't do it.
Table of Contents
ORIGINAL CARBURETOR
FUEL PUMPS(2)
CARBURATOR SELECTION, SIZING AND CFM (2)
CARBURATION LAT OPTION SPECIFICATIONS (LAT -1, -3, -20) (4)
CARB TUNING (8)
OPTIMAL AIR FUEL MIXTURE RATIO DISCUSSION (9)
INTAKE MANIFOLDS AND RELATED TOPICS 13>
CARBURATOR LINKAGE AND CABLES 20
AIRFILTERS (REPLACEMENT ELEMENTS AND ASSEMBLIES) 21
PCV CONNECTIONS AND RELATED GAS FUMES 23
Date: 8 May, 2001
Ron Fraser
Ford part# C3AZ-9533F for a 1964 260 engine
A 5BB is the Design level and build date
A= for design level A
5BB= 2nd week of February 1965
Venturi 1.01 this # is molded into the body of the carb in a raised circle
Jets = 43F
Booster = CA - this is stamped on the booster
Bore diameter = 1 7/16"
Acc pump setting inner hole at pump, top hole at throttle
Choke cap ID- TN this is molded into the cap and means it is for a manual transmission
Choke setting is 2 marks rich
Idle RPM = 600
Fast Idle = 1300
Ron Fraser
Date: Aug 1996
From: Michael McBeth
From: Bob Palmer
From: Mike Wood
(Micheal) Indicated that the best way to determine if the pump is working is tell tale lack of racket when (and I do mean when, not if) his fuel pump has an off moment (minute, hour, etc). A good test a good test to determine if the problem is the fuel pump is as follows: If it stalls and switching the key on and off doesn't bring the familiar Brrrrr sound then the pump needs a nudge, if it purrs merrily, then look elsewhere. I have a solid American Carter on there now but it has taken on the English disease and needs occasional spanking.
(Bob) Gary, thanks for the "scoop on the SS new and "improved" fuel pump. Probably most of us will want to consider some other alternative. Just to add another personal anecdote to this thread, several years back I bought a Mallory Comp Pump, Series 70. Instead a vanes, it uses a "gerotor" which is just like a miniature oil pump. This is not a "centrifugal" pump, as was referred to in another posting. Although Mallory suggests putting this pump as close a possible to the fuel tank, they also want a fuel filter between the tank and the pump. Some other pumps say, and with good reason, that putting a filter before the pump doesn't work. The point is, in any reasonable installation the Mallory pump will generate enough vacuum when dry to prime itself. It is also a little noisy and runs constantly, not on demand like some others. Recently, on a trip to LA, this pump gave me some problems. It did fail in a progressive and somewhat forgiving manner but I eventually had to call my buddy Dale Akuszewski to come to my rescue. He found the problem was the brushes in the DC motor and, after cleaning them up and replacing them, I was back on the road. I wish I could be more specific about how many hours was on this pump before failure, but it was the equivalent of quite a bit more than 15-20k miles I'm sure. All in all, I'd still recommend this pump over the others I've tried.
(Mike) Six years ago, I installed an off the shelf, Holley "Red" pump. They are maxed out at about 6-7 psi so you don't need a regulator, cost about $50 and are dead reliable. Maybe not particularly inventive or original, but worked just fine.
Date: Aug 99
From: Bill ??
Tim Ronak
Bill submitted this information about his engine combination but unfortunately I did not have his last name or email address at time of editing. (I accidentally deleted it)
Here we go, I will list my engine particulars first then go on to the carb questions. This will be kinda long.
Engine:
Engine, 5 bolt 289 thirty over, crane copy of the hipo 289 cam (hydraulic)
Heads, 289 with 351W valves, port matched, cleaned up pockets etc. Final Compression, 10:1
Headers, 2" exhaust, no crossover, 3 chamber flowmasters. Intake, Tiger lowrise.
1/2" composite Phenolic plate with pcv takeoff going to rear holes.
this is all the details I can recall without the build sheet in hand.
Carburation Details:
Carb, out of the box it had #70 jets all around, and 6.5 power-valves.
30cc accelerator pumps. The Idle air bleeds and High speed air bleeds look like baby jets and are screwed into the venturi area of the carb. On most Holley's the air bleeds are machined into the carb body and are only tunable if you drill them out, with the new design they become tunable by changing the size of the bleed itself. Larger means more
air/less fuel, smaller/more fuel/less air. All four throttle plates are stainless and have 1/8 holes on the leading edge. With four corner idle there is better fuel dispersion to the entire engine but it's harder to get it dialed in. I have dropped the jet size to #66 and changed the power-valves to 4.5. I am still too rich at Idle so I ordered the air bleed kit so that I can lean out the idle air pre circuit. I tried driving it around some and it had pretty good response off idle, stuffed me into the seat pretty good :). The air bleeds are part of the circuit that pre emulsifies the fuel before going through the venturi. I think this is still to rich. I am only out one turn on the bleed screws, any more and it gets real stinky. I only have 11" of vacuum at idle (1000rpm) and can't get it to idle any lower. The carb also has a rear throttle plate adjustment screw that is upside down so I had to make a special screwdriver to adjust it. The only vacuum port on the carb is where the air cleaner stud is so I had to drill out and tap the stud so that I could measure vacuum and then button it back up. What a pain, am I having any fun yet? So the bottom line is if you want one of these get ready to pony up about $700.00 bucks and order the air bleed kit and a jet kit and a power valve kit. I had to run one of those chrome dual feed fuel lines
but it is mostly hidden, the fuel runs on the passenger side so the fuel line looks better. I have to get back to work now so send the next batch of questions to me and I will get to them. Have a great weekend :)
(Tim) As far as our small Block Chevy we made 620 HP with a modified Bo-Lawes (BLP) Race Products "750" that when "corrected" flowed 1030 CFM at the base plate. they do this by balancing the flow of each bore of the carb maximizing the venturi effect to accelerate air through the carburetor achieving higher than previously possible airflow. The Rocket guys are probably better equipped to explain this Venturi effect but on our car it had very impressive throttle response, "it was instantaneous!". I had another modified carb previously on a Drag/Pro-Street car that started out as a 750 annular discharge until TRC (Total Racing Carburetors) did some improvements and in the end it flowed 1090 CFM. I don't recall the amount of vacuum that they tested them at as I don't know where the flow sheets are (11years ago....Bob you are probably beginning to wonder if I have ever really done any of this at all or maybe I B.S. well). The first carb was on a 355 with Brodix-8 cylinder heads with 180cc Intake runner volume and a Crane IR-260 Roller tappet cam, 6" Rods and an HVH modified Intake and worked really well and did not in any way seem too big especially considering the incredible throttle response. The second carb was on a small block 406 inch engine with 5.85" rods, crane TR-242 Roller tappet cam, heavily ported 292 turbo castings and a ported Edelbrock Victor Intake. The TRC carb was a more highly modified piece but it worked so well it encouraged us to buy the BLP one for the 355. The TRC carb was an unbelievable piece with heli-arced throttle plates with half of the throttle shaft milled out on top of the wafer thin throttle blades...part of how they increase the airflow... and they also completely reshaped the venturi. I think part of the modification was to increase the diameter of, or use a base plate off of an 800 CFM carb. The reason I started to explore these modified carbs is that when I was power tuning my 406 at any RPM over 7400 the car would start to lay down and after testing found that the Vacuum would start to climb as the engine hit 7500. After much discussion and deliberation we determined that at High RPM the engine could not get enough air through the carb and was starting to create significant vacuum. The problem was that as it started to climb it climbed really quickly. With the roller and the Automatic (5500 Rossi stall converter) In order to get the engine to idle in gear, as it made little vacuum at idle(4.5"), I used 3.5 power valves. At 8000 the vacuum was climbing to over 2.5 inches...by my gauge... was it accurate ...I dunno. The point is that there was some vacuum and if it ever got to 3.5" KABOOM!!! as this would close off the main fuel circuit and force an engine twisting at 8500 to make do with only enough fuel to idle. MAJOR LEANOUT!!!
The point of this dissertation is that the CFM demand of an engine is unique to the combination of parts on the engine. While there is some limitations to the volumetric efficiency of a specific engine displacement, It would not surprise me in the least that I can make a 600 work very well on the 260 and a 650 DP work extremely well on a 302 as long as I can modify cylinder heads and exhaust. I know that the 347 strocker with a roller and twisted Wedge heads should have the same demand for air as our old 355 but I may not go so aggressive that I put the 1090 CFM modified 750 on it as the durability of those race pieces is just not there. On a side note, the CFM rating on a factory produced Holley may or may not be exactly as they state. My originally configured 750 actually flowed something less than 750 CFM (725 if I remember correctly) What Holley is trying to tell you is that the carb's flow somewhere...... around....... 600 CFM........This fits into RACE MOTTO #3: YEAH, YEAH! SURE, SURE! The corollary being: "Don't believe everything you are told until you prove it to your self!"
RUMOR: The Nascar guys order carb's in sets of ten flow them all and keep the best 2 and sell the rest to schmucks like us.
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97
Tom Ballou (NEW)
Bruce McGuire
Norman Miller
Steve Laifman
Holley Tech Support
Kieth Overton
Ron Fraser
Edelbrock Tech Support
Paul R Sheahan
(Tom) Steve, I think you find this carburetor stuff is a function of time and homologation rules. The original carb shipped with the first LAT-1 kits was the Holley 1-12 4V List 1848 which is the original carb for the 289HP engine in 1963. Most of the kits were shipped with either the Holley 1-14 4v List 1850 (universal 600cfm vac secondary carb) or the 715 cfm Holley (don't remember the numbers) which is the carb that came on the GT-350s. Theoretically, if you bought only the induction kit, you got the 1850. If you also ordered the hypo cam and distributor, you got the 715cfm instead. I think there was some smoke there. You are right about the 715 being much too big - unless you were Doan Spencer and were racing these babies. In order to be able to race these thing equipped with the 715, Doan had to show that it was an option and was being marketed as such in a package, so Ian Garrad and Dick Wheatley helped him out. I don't think many people actually got the 715cfm or that it worked for anyone driving on the street, although for some dragsters it may have been OK. I have both the 1848 and the 1850 (as well as an 1849 - 550cfm) and prefer the 1848, even on a 289 with a nice Crane cam in it. Holley used two parallel id systems for carbs. List 1848 is the 1-12, list 1850 is the 1-14 (although mow there are more 1850 models, the only difference in the linkage). I like the old 4160 (1848 and 1850 are 4160s).
(Bruce) I have an original LAT 3 manifold. It looks just like a Ford 4 barrel manifold, but cast out of aluminum. With Tiger on the front runner, of course. Mine is different than the one in the picture in that the provision for the road draft tube is sealed, and not machined. On my car, I have a vintage F4B, but not a true LAT F4B, because mine has the throttle linkage boss cast into the manifold, to the rear, and left of the carb. I am using a Holley, list 1848-1, 465 CFM, with Ford # COAE-9510-N. This is how I convince the smog guys. Show them pictures & tell 'em they're factory LAT options. (the ford # on the carb helps)
(Tom) The 4v does mean 4 barrel. 1-12 = R1848 (465cfm); 1-14 = R1850(600cfm); the R1849 was similar @55cfm. All were square flange vacuum secondaries with primary side metering blocks and secondary metering plates (4160). You can replace the secondary plate with a metering block using Holley's kit (I have). You can also convert to center-pivot-floats using a kit (I have). Then you have a 4150. If you can find an 1848 in any condition buy it. You can buy a new throttle plate and many other part you need as long as you have the main body. I'm on the road. more when I get home if you need it. Tom
(Norm) Steve, Yes the original 465CFM Holley would have had an automatic choke - "Hot-air choke". I believe that Sunbeam Specialties has been selling 465CFM carbs, check with them. They won't be exactly like the original, but what is any more. Norman C. Miller Rootes Group Depot "The International Registry Of Sunbeam Tigers" "The Book Of Norman, Volume I" "Tiger Press" "Web Page" (http://shell3.ba.best.com/~rootes1/rootes-group.html)
(Bruce) Reply to: "What is a "road draft tube"?" In the days before positive crankcase ventilation, there was the road draft tube. Basically a tube that vents crankcase pressures to the atmosphere. Also called a blow-by tube. The original 260 front cover has the hole left over from the old casting molds. In some 3/4 right views of early Ford V8's (221-260) you can see the tube coming out of the front cover, snaking down underneath the generator. This is how you can tell at a glance whether it is a 260 or 289. Unless it's someone like me who puts the proper 260 cover on a 289, or 302 to keep people guessing.
(Steve) (Oct 1997) Question to Holley Tech Support: HI, I have a 1965 Sunbeam Tiger. This car comes from the factory with a late 260 CID Ford V-8 engine. In the base configuration, a Ford 2V is supplied. Factory options included an Edelbrock F4B moderately high rise aluminum intake manifold and one of two Holley carburetors. One was called the Holley 465 CFM List 1848; 1-12-4V The other was the Holley 600 CFM List 1850; 1-14-4V I would like to use as close to the original equipment as possible. Although the local suppliers have a 0-1850 available, it comes without choke, and they don't know what an 1848 is. The 1-12-4V, or 1-14-4V do not appear to mean much to them either. I notice in your web that there is a 0-4548 Ford 450 CFM application, with Hot Air choke. Could this be the same as the 1848-1-12-4V? Your charts indicate that the 465 CFM is a better fit to my 260 than a 600 CFM, so I am inclined to use the smaller flow. Suppliers tell me that the 4160 is the "SAME" carb. Could you please assist me. I would especially like to know if original "tags" are available for the older models. Thank you, -- Steve Laifman B9472289
(Holley Tech Support Response) (Oct 97)
0-1848-1 is a 465cfm model 4160 with hot air choke. O-1850is a 600cfm model 4160 with manual choke. these are only two in the many different 4160's built over the years with many different configurations of the basic 4160 design. The 0-1848-1 is available and is the better size option for your application. There is no way to get any original tag from Holley we did not ever supply them. Thanks ----------
(Tom) (Oct 97) I even ran the 1848 on my 289 for several years (50K) and liked it. You will not only get smoother response on the bottom end, you will get better gas mileage (may not be a priority). If you look at the homograph in the back of the Holley Carburetor book, you will see that even if you could get your 260 (or even a 302) up to a volumetric efficiency of 1.0 (extremely unlikely over any rpm spread whatsoever) you could consume more than about 450 cfm at any reasonable rpm. Personally, I doubt any of us will ever see a VE higher than about .9 (unless you spring for a set of TFS twisted wedge heads). The real limitation on any of these SBF engines (except maybe the 302/351 BOSS engines) is the exhaust valves and runners. Even the 289 heads with the bigger valves, don't do a very good job. The BOSS (Cleveland design) head had a much better exhaust path and could actually get to a VE of about 1. The only other Ford engines in that class were the 429CJ and the 427SOC (well, there were a few "tunnel port" engines that could do it, but they weren't production pieces). BTW, the 1850 will also do fine, but I think it loses just a little at the bottom end. I am going to shift mail services. In the future please use "tballou@trip.net". Later, Tom
(Steve) (May 99) Armand, As I said, Ford has purchased carbs from Holley, with their name on it. Sometimes it even has Holley's name. A good reference source on how it worked (and how to determine IF it works) is Haynes Holley book # 1022 (2069) at speed shops and Pep Boys. My Edelbrock air-fuel ratio meter is also a very handy tool for seeing that everything is working properly, and what to adjust when it isn't. The secondaries monitor manifold vacuum and throttle position, and allow enough vacuum in to start moving the secondaries. The more air flow you demand, the wider they open. Mechanical secondaries open the minute you put your foot to it, sometimes giving over carburation by being too open. Very good, if all you do is wide-open throttle racing. Steve -- Steve Laifman
(Kieth) (May 99) Carb Question part2? Thank you for all your good comments on my first carb inquiry! Upon taking the good advice I received, I did a little more research.....which warranted a few more questions...I do not believe I have a HOLLEY I was not able to find any markings which would have stated so, and I was not able to make a ID using the book I referenced on Holleys. The only markings are the FoMoCo. Tag, and some Cast in marks on the Front bowl. The TAG reads C4AF R, and the Cast marking (which Look more Like a Date/Time Stamp) also have A 3HD, and 1.08 cast into it. Does this sound like a Carter or a Rochester, or even some other type, or can it still be a Holley in Disguise?
(Ron) (May 99) Keith I could not find a listing for TAG C4AF R, but this is what the codes mean. C4AF R C4 = built for model year 1964
A 3HD = Rev and build date code
A = Rev A
3 = Build year 1963
H = August
D = Fourth week
1.08 = venturi diameter
There should be a stamped code on the base of the carb at the front left bolt hole.
(Steve) (Question to Edelbrock Tech Support) (Oct 97)
Tech Support,
I Have low mileage Sunbeam Tiger with original 260 CID Ford V-8. Considering installation of recently obtained Edelbrock F4B factory option manifold. Originally supplied with 465 CFM 0-1848-1 Holley for 260's and 600 CFM 0-1859-1 Holley for 289 (Have neither carb.)
Looking for Edelbrock Carb recommendation (CFM) for following options:
1) Manifold installation only.
2) Use '65 Ford 289 heads with larger exhaust valves (1.45 vs. 1.39) than 260, and manifold.
3) Use Edelbrock Aluminum heads, with even bigger valves (don't know if they will clear 3.8 in. bore cylinder wall)
4) Primarily Street use with town, freeway driving. Don't expect to exceed 6,000 rpm.
5) What is your advise: Which head, what flow rating carb 500 CFM or 600 CFM?
6) What about the mild Edelbrock cam?
Thank you,
Steve
(Edelbrock Tech Support) (Oct 97) Response: Steve, The Edelbrock 500 CFM carb would be our recommendation. It will be sized the best for the small 260 CID engine in your Tiger. A 600 CFM carb will be too much even with better/larger cylinder heads. The Edelbrock cylinder heads will not work because of the small bore and large valve combination. You will also need to be very careful when installing the Ford 289 heads with the slightly larger 1.45" & 1.39" valves. The stock 260 pistons have no valve notches which could cause interference problems with the valves. In any case the 500 CFM #1404 will be the one to use. Thanks- Scott Fort
(Paul) (Mar 98) Steve, I talked with Jan Harde this morning and he said you changed the carb on your car and got significantly more HP. As you may know, I bought his white car and am interested boosting the power. Must be a sickness..........MORE HP!!!! Jan has recommended a Holly double pumper. He said you knew the one to get. What would you recommend. I've got the number for Home Mechanics Warehouse and thought I would order it from them. Any info would be appreciated. Looking forwarded to hearing from you. Paul R. Sheahan B382001555 B382002177 <---------------The Beast from the West looking for MORE POWER!!
(Steve) (Mar 98) Ken, Oh no, rocket science is MUCH more complicated. This stuff is simple. As far as the Edelbrock is concerned, yes I do think highly of their product, having used the Performer manifold and their Weber modified carb on my '66 and '72 Mustangs. There is only one gasket joint and it is above the fuel line. Performs well. They have many more models now, and most are geared towards emissions vehicles. Make sure you pick the ones that are NOT. They have two basic designs now, 500 CFM and 600 CFM. They come with and without electric chokes. Kits are available separately. They have a PCV mount tube, but I don't remember it's front and rear, or just front. This might mean some hose plumbing to get to the rear mounted device. Look at them before you buy. I would recommend the 500 CFM unit as being more suited to all speed around town/highway driving. I had no problem the 600 on a 289 and 302 engine, but the 260 would probably be over carburretted. These larger flows suffer from 'bogging' on lower speed acceleration to achieve maximum peak performance. I think the smaller one is much more drivable, and economical, with little loss of peak power. So, if your not into keeping it factory option stock, I would pick the Performer RPM manifold and 500 CFM electric choke (non-smog tuned) carb. Steve -- Steve Laifman B9472289
(Steve) (Mar 99) Ken, Small world. My son, and his wife, are both attorneys, and I lived in Highland Park, IL and worked on Michigan Ave. for 6 years, until I moved back to native Los Angeles in '72. I used a new Holley 1848-1, on my F4B. Holley is still making them, although sometimes they are back-ordered. This is a smaller flow rate version of the 1850, with hot-air choke (for air tube from stock exhaust manifolds). 465 CFM vs. 600 CFM. Very tractable on a 260, or a 289 for that matter. There is the issue of the PVC connection. This carb is the ORIGINAL design that came with the LAT-1 Tiger kit, and has NO PVC inlet tube in the base. How they connected it, I don't know.(Editor: The original configuration had a spacer beneath the carb that contained the PCV tube) I put a 1/4 inch Boss 302 carb spacer on that has a 9/16 tube squished into it for PVC. It worked fine, and everything seemed to clear. Then I noticed, later, that the front edges of my stock air cleaner was rubbing the paint on the hood. Talk about close. I went to my local Holley store and bought an 1860 universal throttle plate. It has the tube built in, and a check valve to protect the power valve from blowing out in a back-fire. It is 1/16 inch larger in throttle plates, but it's thickness prevents any contact of the butterflies with the smaller throats. No sweat, just make sure your new gasket has the same holes. You could probably use the old gasket, if you haven't run it and do it before installation. Two cautions. The one I bought does NOT have the extended arm to flip that cork seal on the top of the front float bowl. Doesn't seem to bother anything, but some of these plates may have that lever extension. The other thing to watch is the choke screw's alignment with the notched cam on the right side for the choke flapper. Make sure it is bent to align the screw with the teeth. I would also adjust this screw to touch the cam correctly BEFORE installation. Can't see any way in the world to get a screwdriver on it after it's mounted. Strange design. There are only two changes I made to the carb's set-up. I richened the primary jets 2 steps (#59 I think), and I added a lighter spring in the vacuum secondary diaphragm housing. Good time to do this is when you are messing with the throttle plate. Don't forget which rod went where. These springs are available in kits, cheap. I chose the "plain" one. This allows the secondaries to come in a little earlier. Using my Edelbrock fuel-air ratio meter I find the mixture to be "dead nuts" under all driving conditions. Running slightly rich with today's gas, as recommended by my race tuner. (14.6 is theoretically ideal. I'm running 13.6) Hope this helps. -- Steve Laifman B9472289
Subject the Over Rich and Un-adjustable
Date May 1999
From: Tim Ronak
From: Dave Johnson
From: Ron Fraser
(Tim) Roland Flueeler had a severe rich condition while idling and while I do not have the original post I recall that he had rebuilt the carb and afterwards it had the problem. A variety of responses were sent that all had applicability but the condition was rectified when the leaking power valve condition was identified and corrected by correctly seating the unit and ensuring a good seal.
(Dave) Roland just a guess, but sounds like a float that’s:
1. Misadjusted. Your kit should have a small cardboard gauge to adjust the float.
2. Bad needle or needle valve seat. Its attached to the float and causes the gas to shut off when the bowl is full.
3. Bad float. The brass floats can develop a pin hole leak causing the float to sink making the needle valve call for more gas. As to the idle mixture screws, run both all the way in and then back out about 1 to 1 1/2 turns. The mixtures screws are best adjusted with a vacuum gauge. I adjust mine to get max rpm and then richen it a bit by screwing it back in a bit. I would rather run rich and waste gas than run lean and burn a valve.
(Ron) Roland, I will assume you have an Autolite 2 barrel Carb. Your problem does sound like it is at the power valve. Here are some possibilities.
Too Rich condition: Too little air;
1. Check to make sure the choke is wide open. Too much fuel;
2. Take the top of the carb off, and with just the fuel pump ON, check the float level also check that the fuel shuts off.
3. Check the size of the main jets, your carb should have #'s 38 to 46 depending on the altitude of your location. Jet size in the parts manual reduces by 2 for every 5,000 ft increase in altitude. Any jet size over #50 is too big, in my opinion, for a 2 barrel carb. It is always good to know the jet size anyway. If your carb has a TAG number on it, that can be referenced to the jet size for that carb.
4. Now for the power valve. The power valve will leak if it is not seated correctly or if the gasket is poor. The power valve could also just be bad. Check to see if there is a number on the power valve and compare it to the number on the valve you removed. The numbers should be the same or close, the number indicates at what vacuum the valve opens. The power valve will leak if the vacuum to it is low. The power valve is closed when the vacuum is high and opens when the vacuum is low. Low vacuum can mean the internal vacuum passage is not open and needs to be cleaned. Another possibility, you may have over tightened the screws for the power valve cover and warped it enough to allow air in, and created a continuous low vacuum condition. Take the cover off and check it for flatness and cracks, also check the gasket for breaks and flaws. Never over tighten the screws for the power valve cover or the accelerator pump, those covers can and will bend or warp, snug is just fine for those screws. I hope this helps you, I'm betting your problem is in #4. Here is a link to the carb shop that maybe helpful. <http://www.cybervillage.com/ponycarburetor/index.htm>
Optimal Air Fuel Mixture Ratio
Date: May 1999
From: Gerard ??
Steve Laifman
(Steve) I already installed the Edelbrock A/F unit, and am running an F4B Edelbrock with a Holly 1848-1 465 CFM vacuum secondary, as was stock factory option on my Sunbeam Tiger 260 Ford V8. I changed the secondary vacuum diaphragm spring to "plain", bringing it in a little earlier, and
increased the mains by 2 steps (0.002 mills) from stock box. Really runs super, idles 600 rpm, no surges, flat spots, or bogging. My readings, however, are more like 13.5:1 under most conditions except highway or street low throttle cruising, where almost all lights flicker, but the red one is not the only light. (way too lean).
Edelbrock assured me that those readings were correct, rather than the theoretical 14.7:1, with today's gasoline (Southern California, anyway) and performance tuning. The mileage is 18 mpg.
They insisted that 14.7 is too lean, and is , in fact, only 1 light from the red one.
Any experience/comments on this?
(Gerard) I haven't used the LED type readouts, preferring the digital voltmeter method. You can hook up a dvm in parallel with your readout. What I have found is that each car performs differently at each mixture. If you increase your spark plug gaps, get a hipo coil, 8mm wires, and spark box, you can successfully run much leaner than you can with 60's ignition. I lean my carbs out until performance suffers, then richen back up a bit for good economy. Holleys should be power tuned with the diameter of the power valve channel restrictions, not the main jets. Keep the main jets sized for economy. I kept going leaner on the mains on my Pinto, and the mileage really went up when it just got into the lean misfire area. An MSD would help prevent the lean misfires, and increase the mileage even more. Do you participate in the CAT stuff? I'm a member, but Santa Maria is a bit too far for most events. Later! Gerard -- BOB Oil Recovery System: http://www.bob2000.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Geewhiz Homepage: http://home.inreach.com/geewhiz/4277.htm : Fast Ford cars, ATV's, Rockets, & A Tribute to My Late Father
Intake Manifolds (Related Topics)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999
Subject: Re: Intakes
Steve Laifman
(Steve)
From: Daniel Jones
<> (Dan)
From: Tim Ronak
From: Dick Barker (TigerCoupe)
From: Tom Hall
From: Kirt Jensen
(Steve) (Response to Chris Vaught about fitment and dimensions of different Intakes)
You are very welcome.
I know that you are new to the Tiger game, and I provided some additional information on vacuum vs. mechanical secondaries, and how to get center hung float bowls on vacuum secondaries. While this wasn't your primary question, it will be coming up when you get there. There are lots of arguments on the benefits, and drawbacks, of each basic type. I am sure you will hear all sides.
In your consideration of manifolds, I realize that there are a lot of opinions out there. When it comes to fit and dimensions, there are even more. While I provided a response to your concern, it occurs to me that others may want the actual dimensions to do their own assessments. When I was going through the same process as you are I contacted Edelbrock and got the EXACT answers. The F4B information is not readily available, but I was able to locate a Vice President who was in the technical department early in his career, and still had the drawings for the F4B.
First, definitions of measurements:
To ensure adequate hood clearance, Edelbrock provides manifold heights for all their products, but sometimes leave them out of the catalog by mistake. These dimensions are made with the manifold sitting on a flat level surface. A straight edge is laid across the carburetor pad mounting flange, and the vertical height from the flat surface to the long straight edge are made at the front center of the manifold. This height measurement is called "A".
A similar measurement is made at the rear center of the manifold. This measurement is "B".
The carburetor pad height "CH" is simply A + B divided by 2.
Please note that these statements are valid under two conditions. First, the length of the manifolds being compared is the same. Since they all fit the same sealing surface on the same engine, this is true. The second criteria is that the carburetor mounting flange is located in the same position on all compared models. This statement has been a subject of differing opinions on this list.
According to Edelbrock, The carburetor pad on the Performer 289/302 low rise, the Performer RPM, the F4B, and all other's for this block are not only the same, but are centered in the middle of the block, and directly over the exhaust cross-over in the manifold. This provides even heat under the carburetor, and is in a fixed location on the engine. While certain carburetors may be too long to clear the firewall, at the same "CH", that effect will exist on all manifolds near the same height. The exception, of course, is the F-28 Dual Quad, with TWO four barrel carbs, but they are symmetrically spaced.
Hear are the Edelbrock dimensions:
F4B (2500-7000 rpm design)
A = 4.563 inches
B = 5.313 inches
CH = 4.938 inches
Performer 289/302 (idle-5500 rpm design)
A = 3.50 inches
B = 4.75 inches
CH = 4.125 inches
(This is a 'low rise' manifold, similar to the stock Ford dimensions.)
Performer RPM (1500-6500 rpm design)
A = 4.30 inches
B = 5.50 inches
CH = 4.90 inches
As can be seen, the RPM is 0.038 inches lower than the F4B, giving more hood clearance, although the F4B will fit if you don't use a carburetor higher than the Holley or Edelbrock. Carburetor choice, gasket thickness, thermal barrier spacers and needs for PCV tube plates alter the total height, but would add the same amount to any.
The F4B is listed as a higher rpm manifold than the 'RPM'. Although, the RPM is a more modern design, flows better, and is of a higher quality casting and material. If you are REALLY going to operate in the higher regions, perhaps a Victor Jr., with an RPM range of 3500-8000 rpm, and a CH of 5 50 inches, or Victor 5.0 with a really big 8.25 inches is worth considering for racing.
There are other manifold manufacturers, who make excellent products that may be a better selection for your application, but the questions were on Edelbrock.
Well, I suppose that's a good deal more than you care to know, but there may be others on the list who do not have this information. Especially the old F4B design. I hope it is of some use to someone.
(Dan) (Original contributions on Torker intake and Carter carb heights May 6, 1999)
The Torker is a HIGH rise manifold. The Carter is about the same as the Holley. Don't believe it will clear, but you can always test it, if installed, with a wad of aluminum foil on top of the carb.
From Edelbrock's web site, the heights are:
A B
A Performer 289 3.50" 4.75"
B Torker II 4.00" 5.18"
C Performer RPM 4.30" 5.50"
I believe a Performer 289 will clear but I don't know about a Performer RPM. If the RPM does, then a Torker II should as well. With only a 1/2" taller carb base than a Performer 289, it's possible it will. The air cleaner flange is a little lower on the Carter so that will help some.
(Steve) (Response to Dan Jones) Thanks for the measurements. I have used the Performer on my Mustang. A good manifold, compared to the stock 4 BBL, but not in the league of the Performer RPM, which is, as the numbers show, a high rise. The Torker's dimensions are near, or below the RPM and the RPM is nearly the same as the F4B LAT. I believe it is not a dual plane manifold, and is a bit soggy at the lower RPM ranges, but superior at the high revs. My experience with the F4B is that it will clear the stock hood and stock air cleaner IF you use a regular nut, instead of a wing nut (which wasn't original anyway). The carb MUST have a built-in EGR valve inlet tube, There is no room for any kind of spacer, even the 1/4 inch 302 BOSS one. Even so, I would test the clearance at the front left and right stock air cleaner corners, and watch whose filter you use. The original LAT 465 CFM carb did not have a PVC port, being originally built for a '55 T-Bird. The throttle plate base can be changed to a newer 600 CFM base, (watch the gasket and hole matching) and everything works fine, even with engine torque twist.
(Tim) Another option for securing the air cleaner to provide additional intake height clearance is to use a stove bolt as the air cleaner attaching fastener. I use this on mine and simply use a flat screw- driver or a dime to undo the bolt if I require removal of the air cleaner cover plate.
(Dan) (clarification about the type of manifold that a Torker is) The Torker is a HIGH rise manifold. I believe it is not a dual plane manifold, and is a bit soggy at the lower RPM ranges, but superior at the high revs. It do believe that it is a single plane. Windsor states his is a Torker 289 but what Edelbrock now lists is a Torker II which may or may not be the same as a Torker 289. They redesigned some of the early intakes but others were simply renamed. Some single planes are much better than others. Stay away from the x-type single planes that have straight runners into the ports. The better ones have gently curved runners. The best high rise dual planes may beat a so-so single plane all the way across the rev range. A good single plane will usually win out on the top end and some aren't too bad on the low end either. The tricky part is when you add the effect of an air cleaner. I lean towards a good medium rise single plane like a Weiand Xcelerator with a full air cleaner element over a high rise with a restricted element. That assumes I've got the cam and compression to use a single plane in the first place. Single planes can work well but they are more sensitive to engine configuration and tuning.
(On April 28, 1998 Kirt Jenssen wrote: about Dual Quad Intake)
I have come across a used Edelbrock F4B ( single four barrel ) intake as well as used Edelbrock F28 Dual Quad ( as seen in the Book of Norm page 131 on B9499999 )
(Dick Barker responded about the dual Quad in detail) FYI, the manifold used on B9499999, B9499998 and B9499997 was a Cobra unit, not an Edelbrock. Fitted with 2 Carter AFB's rated at 550CFM each, the set up was available as a kit OTC from Ford as Part No. C4OZ-6B068-E for $240.15. Linkage kits were also available for an additional $8.40 or $14.85, depending on the vehicle application. This was the induction set-up supplied by Mr. Shelby on a variety of his products (he supplied the engines for the LM Tigers, remember?), and was also used by Ford on cars like the rally Falcon Sprints. The manifold was lettered "Cobra", and was probably cast for Shelby by Benevedies. When Chris Gruys acquired B9499998, it came with a blown 289 fitted with Webbers. Chris installed a killer 260 (built by Wally Cartwright) and fitted 2 small Holley 4bbls mounted sideways on an Edelbrock dual quad manifold, and the whole thing actually fit under the Tiger hood. Today, Syd Silverman runs the car with Webbers again (requires a small hood scoop), but I believe the motor is still the Cartwright 260. For those of you who have heard it, it certainly is awesome! Dick Barker
(Kirt) My question concerns intakes.
Has anyone tried the Victor Jr. intake ? Pro's & Con's ?? Will it clear a stock hood ??
(Steve) Sure it will, Kirt. All you have to do is make the hole in the hood big enough {9-
Seriously, though, the F4B, with the 565-600 CFM Holley carb, just makes it if your motor mounts are correct, and you DON'T use a spacer under the carb. The front edge of the air cleaner want's to be a 'kissing cousin' to the hood, on the sides, even so. The new Edelbrock Performer RPM is a close match to the dimensions of the F4B (a new version of the old design) with straighter and better mixture distribution, and will fit under the stock hood. The Rest Will Not! Sure, the Victor Jr. and the Torker will give you a lot more at the high end, but are not so good in the lower RPM range. AS in everything you do to a car, there is a compromise to be made. Where and how to you want your performance served up, and what are you willing to trade for it. Edelbrock's catalog details the design goals and useful applications, along with the recommended cam profiles. You want a smooth idle and performance from 1500 to 5800 rpm, the Performer RPM is the better choice. you want higher power in the higher rpm ranges and even beyond 6,000, the Victor Jr. or Torker are your choice. But the cam must match the performance range of the manifold, as should the carburetor tuning. It will idle like a wet dog, and limp off the line. It won't like slow rpm running in traffic. It will scream once you get the thing winding about above 2800 rpm. As they say, you pays your money, and you get your choices, but you can't have everything
(Dan) From Blue Thunder's website (http://www.bluethunderauto.com/), there appear to be several versions of the Cobra intake:
"Cobra" HiR 4V (reproduction?) intake manifold (three versions)
"Cobra" (low rise) 4V reproduction manifold
"Tiger" (low rise) 4V reproduction manifold
Don't know what the differences are.
(Steve) Dan, There is also the High Rise Cobra/Tiger LAT option manifold that was the one Vic Edelbrock took off and sold his F4B as THE LAT option in a race shoot-out. Turns out there was also a low-rise LAT option during the Chrysler years. I have the installation instructions specifying a 1 inch spacer for the PCV valve with Chrysler letterheads!!!!
Subject:
Intake Manifold Gaskets
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998
From: Dave Binkley
From: Bob Palmer
From: Bill Martin
From: Steve Laifman
(Question from Dave Binkley) This is a little hard for me to explain, but here goes. I have the original intake manifold off and am in the middle of installing an Edelbrock F4B. Valve covers are off. Looking down at the cylinder heads it is pretty obvious that the forward and rear ports are for water. The four ports which mate up to the intake manifold for air/fuel are also obvious. What is the port in the middle for? This is the smaller one sandwiched between the two middle intake manifold bolts.
Here's why I ask.
I have two intake gasket sets (both say they are for 260/289/302). One gasket set has no hole where this middle port is. The other gasket set has a round hole where this middle (rectangular) port is. I'm guessing I need to use the set with the hole in the middle and probably need to cut the hole out to match the shape of the rectangular port.
So, what's going on here?
(Bob’s reply) (To curious about the extra Heat riser holes in Intake manifold gaskets) These are the "heat riser" openings that allow exhaust gases to circulate under the plenum chamber. Heating the plenum improves gas/air mixing and speeds warm-up of the engine. If you are more interested in horsepower than economy, you may want to use the intake manifold gasket with these openings closed off. I use this type of gasket on my Tiger and have for the last twenty years. Can't remember what it was like the other way, but I have no objections to the way it works.
(Bill’s Reply) Use the gasket that is for the HiPo 289 from Felpro, it has larger intake holes and the correct size and shape holes for the water passages. Take the gaskets that you have and lay them in place on the intake and heads. The correct one will cover all area's, the incorrect one won't cover the water passages and intake hole's on the F4b. I think it's Felpro part # 390100. If you try to use the cork on the ends you may have trouble with the intake seating on the heads, it's difficult to torque the intake down enough to squish the cork on the ends, I usually use silicone on the ends and toss the cork. Good luck Bill Martin
(Bob Palmer added:) Let's pose the question the other way around: Has anyone out there ever used yellow snot, yellow death, contact cement, or whatever you want to call it to glue the cork doglegs to the block and had it not seal?? I've done it this way a dozen times or more and never had a problem. I think it requires only slightly more proficiency than just using silicone and I feel a lot more confident when I'm finished.
(Tom) The problem with the cork gaskets is keeping them in place as they are compressed while tightening the manifold bolts. Contact cement works well but another "Old Racers Trick" is to prepare the block surface with a center punch. Using a sharp center punch, strike the block midway between the inner and outer edges of the cork gasket surface every 3/8" or so across this surface. The punch leaves craters with sharp raised edges and these prevent the cork from extruding its way out as it is compressed. Contact cement on this prepared surface, a light coating of RTV on the top surface and a bubble of RTV at each tang interface with the manifold gasket. Essentially bulletproof assembly.
PS: Felpro Print-o-Seal gaskets are very effective for intake sealing. I also like to use hardened grade 8 washers under the manifold bolts to obtain uniform torqueing conditions.
(Steve)
Re: F4B's and PCV connection at carb--Long Answer
References: 1
This is a rather long reply to Dave Binkley, on the brink of installing a LAT-1 induction kit, as the Lord Rootes intended, but didn't tell anybody how. Don't read it, unless you have some induction interest
OK, the F4B: The carb does clear, and flipping the spacer over does align the tube with the PVC valve , with the help of a little hose. BUT, after a few miles I started to notice some slight marks on my stock hood. They coincided with the leading edge of the stock air cleaner rounded corners, on each side of center. Yes the carb and air cleaner center cleared (if you don't use the NOS wing nut), but the forward air cleaner corners don't quite make it - with a stock air cleaner. If yours is a little thicker, it is worse. Thinking that this is not a good thing, I reread the instructions from Rootes on installing the F4B, that comes with the kit. It talks about attaching the hose to the stock Ford four-barrel spacer - which is about 1" thick. Obviously, by then (this was a Chrysler-Rootes instruction pamphlet), they had gone to a low rise manifold. The ultimate cure, short of a different air cleaner, is a little more difficult. But here it is: 1) Find a REAL carburetor shop that sells Holley carb PARTS. It costs about $35. There is one called Northridge carburetor, in Northridge, California (yes earthquake alley). I bought a throttle plate from a 600 CFM late model vacuum secondary carb. It consists of the base, throttle rods, butterfly valves, and staked linkages and accelerator pump cam. Just like you would find if you unscrewed yours. 2) This plate has several advantages. There is a built-in PVC tube on the right side that will fit your stock PVC valve. While the current tube is smaller than the original PVC valve, another piece if hose inside the original will make it work fine. Or use a matching hose/PVC valve to the carb tube. The choke adjust plate screw, on the left hand side, does not quite line up with the notched cam on your carb. A little needle-nose adjusting is in order here. You MUST adjust the screw to notched idle step cam BEFORE you put it on the car, cause there is NO WAY, that I have found, to do it after the carb is on. If anyone knows how, please let me know. 3) There is not lever to "kick" that little cross rod that vents the front bowl. doesn't seem to care. 4) A comparison of the holes in the plate and carb, and the gaskets for each, seem to show that all working passages are connected with either, even though the counter man doubted it. 5) You get a built-in anti-backfire check valve to save your power valve in case of back fire. You don't have to buy that $7 kit. 6) The throttle plates, and bore, for the 600 are about 1/16 larger than the bore of your 465. The counter man said it would hit the smaller bore, on opening, and jam. With the center of rotation in the middle of the casting, and the disks being round, the amount the protrudes into your main bore is a great deal less than the existing diameter, so he was wrong again. Don't trust a "counter man" until after you've checked it out. Although he may know a lot more about the number of teeth on your starter drive and fly wheel than you do. Now you have an additional 3/8" space above your carb center, and the sloping curved hood does not hit the edges of the air cleaner. Sorry I found out about it AFTER I scrapped my hood, but hope I caught you before you do. Moral, read all the posts. I make mistakes too. Other recommendations. Don't know what altitude you live at, but I increased the main jets 2 steps from 57's to 59's. Runs a lot stronger. My air/fuel ratio meter says it's a bit rich at all times, (about 13.5 instead of 14.7) which is what you want with today's gas. There is a new "Blue" Holley gasket that is reusable. Sell them in pairs for float bowls and meter block/plates for most models. These are not the rubberized jobs that seem to set and leak (I am told). If you are using a stock gasket, I found that you can reuse them if you change within about 1 month. After that, they seem to stick to the carb and get destroyed. If you are using stock gaskets, put a "light" coating of chapstick on the surfaces of the gaskets (not in the holes). They come off without sticking, don't leak, and may 1 more use. Mr. Gasket sells nylon washers to replace the cork ones under the bolts, if they get worn. Hope this reaches you in time. On your dual-plane question: 1) ALL F4B's are dual plane. They are also moderately high rise. Higher than the Performer, lower than the Torker, about the same as the Performer RPM. The dual plane is a very smooth performer, and has strong torque characteristics in mid range. Much better than a low rise everywhere. Mine idles like a clock at 550 rpm. The higher Torker is fully open, and is great for high end torque. Goes well with high performance cams and really is good at high rpm's. Idles like a wet dog, especially with the cam that should go with it, but it's performance range of 2000 rpm to where the valves float, are really good. You pays your money, and you takes your choice. The Performer RPM is actually an updated version of the original F4B, but performs better, as the runners are much more even length between cylinders. Then again, it's not "original". Same quote. Gaskets: Don't know your weather. Ours is mild year round, so have no use for heat on the bottom of the intake manifold and would install the gasket to block any gas passage under the manifold hot days it can boil out your gas while parked, or assist in vapor lock. In cold country, you better consider it. With stock exhaust, you can reconnect the fresh air pipe between the exhaust manifold hole and that little tube on the bottom right of your air cleaner, as your 1848 has a hot-air choke, and this is where the hot air is supposed to come from. Most Tiger's I've seen have them removed. Doesn't hurt anything, so put it back, or fabricate one with some brake line. Steve -- Steve Laifman B9472289
Subject:
Re: Instrument Sensor Sending Unit Questions (LONG)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999
From: Jay Peterson <japeterson@earthlink.net>
(Jay) The definitive answer on Factory Equipped sensor installation:
MANIFOLDS
The non-Tiger F4-B has pipe threads. The Smiths sender has 5/8 - 18 straight threads. You cannot re-tap the existing hole because it is too big. You should not use an adapter as the sender sensing element will not be in the correct position in the water passage, and give incorrect temperatures. You can not use a US sender because it is not compatible with your gauge, you'd have to use a US gauge. You can not put a brass adapter in the unit and tap it to the correct size, as the O.D. of the new thread will exceed this O.D. of the brass.
O.K., that's what you can't do.
What you CAN do is to have the original hole heli-arc filled with aluminum and tap it with the correct thread. This even eliminates the need for that grounding wire connection. The welder should machine the original hole to a conical shape to clean out the old material
and allow access to the bottom for a bottom to top fill. This is old castings, and a lot of imbedded crud will float to the surface of the molten aluminum. Should be skimmed (removed) while still molten. In the end, you will have the correct thread, in the correct place. Mike, When I ran into the same problem when installing a Cobra manifold on my 289 I took the Ford sender to a local British parts dealer (JAE) and ask for a Smiths sending unit that would fit the same threads. They gave me 2 to try and I ran calibration check on each. The Smith's TT6811/01 tracked within 4 degrees of the thermocouple I was using so I left it installed. Since I do not use a F4B I do not know for sure if the threads are the same, but believe they are. I did not need to drill, tap, or weld as it just screwed in. Jay Peterson
Subject:
Re: Carb Linkage
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998
From: Scott Lampert
From: Steve Laifman
From: Colin Cobb
From: Paul Burr
(Scott) Does anyone have a good solution for a throttle stop cable bracket. I saw a nice billet one in the Jeg's catalog (170-610TSB) but it is $79.00, and it's red.
(Steve) Had to dig through the Jeg's catalog to find your reference. My, that is some impressive piece of hardware. I imagine it is meant to absorb a lot of forces along the outer sheath of the cable linkage. On a Tiger, however, there are almost no forces on the outer sheath. It is fixed on both ends, and the rod inside does all the work. When I went to the 4 barrel Holley, on the high rise F4B, I found the end at a higher position. This caused the stock manifold mounted bracket to bend the outer sheath (and inner 'cable' rod). To cure this, I simply made a flat bracket about 1 1/2" - 2" long, drilled two holes in it. One to fit the rear carb stud, the other to fit the cable-threaded connection. After giving it a 90 degree twist in the middle, so the carb hole is horizontal, and the cable hole is vertical, I painted it Ford Racing Black. Mount the bracket underneath the rear carb stud, and use star lock washers to prevent it from turning around the stud when tight. The cable end is removed from the original bracket and bolted to the new bracket. This should allow the cable to be a straight line between the pedal and the throttle. Two IMPORTANT issues. If you are using a high rise manifold you MUST get a longer inner "cable" (wire rod). The are available from Sunbeam specialties. You MUST re-adjust the accelerator pedal angle (clamp bolt) and pedal stop (screw in/out). This will prevent the cable from being under tension when you are floored. Nothing more embarrassing than to have your cable break on the road, and have to drive back on as fast an idle speed adjust as you can stand. Steve -- Steve Laifman B9472289
(Colin) Hey Gang, Where can I buy a replacement accelerator cable that runs from the
accelerator to the carb linkage? Just a little ol' short thing, maybe a foot or so long?
(Steve) Colin, Walk, do not run, to your telephone and call Rick at Sunbeam specialties. He sells the entire assembly (your outer sheath (nothing personal) is probably pretty ratty by know anyway) and order one. The two lengths are for 2 barrel (stock) and 4 barrel carbs. They must be longer for the 4 barrel, or you'll be putting tension in the cable at WOT and break it. There is a neat little adjustable rubber stop and a clamped cable lever on the accelerator pedal. Don't adjust the rubber stop, it's will work fine against it's stops, but use it if the next step needs a little more help. If you hold the throttle plates full open, and have a 'friend' crawl under your dash an loosen the cable clamp bolt, floor the pedal to the rubber stop, and tighten the cable holder, you'll get full throttle and no foot load on the cable. Next time you 'floor it', the cable won't let go.
(Paul) I used a "Lokar" brand universal throttle cable kit to replace the bicycle brake cable that the PO had rigged! Pick up a copy of "Street Rodder" magazine, Lots of vendors sell the Lokar line of products. It's available with a plain black cable or a spiffy braided stainless steel housing. The black one was @$25. The cable ends and hardware are billet aluminum. It's a really well made part, and fit the Tiger perfectly. Of course, if your a bit down on the bucks from all this holiday shopping. take a swing by the bike dept at Kmart! Not!
Subject:
Re: Air Filters and Assemblies
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998
From: Mike Wood
From: Tom Hall
From: James Barrett
From: Tim Ronak
From: Steve Laifman
(M. Wood) (Reply to: I Am looking for the Hellings and Stellings air filter cover. Any leads? Does anyone know what a reasonable replacement would look like or where , if H and S are still in business?) If I remember correctly, Tony Branda Shelby Parts has what you are looking for. I am going to put the same filter on my Tiger. I don't have their address/phone # handy, but if you would like I could get the info from the NorCal Shelby club. Mike
(Tom) Reply to: Does anyone out there have an extra original tiger air cleaner assembly they
>would be willing to sell for a reasonable price?) "Reasonable" is a highly personal decision. The availability and current condition are the price driving forces. Doug Jennings had some vacuum molded plastic replacements at the TE/AE United in October. They weren't cheap, but they did look very good as far as quality is concerned. Tom
(James) After a dozen messages about the K&N air filters I just have to put my 2 cents in. If your Tiger can stand to have an Air filter stack assembly exactly 2 1/2 inches high using the original Tiger AC filter mounting assembly, then use any of the following air filters:
(All must be distorted from round to oval).
STP SAF-50A
AC A355C
FRAM CA324A
FRAM CA5033
Motorcraft FA612R
Puro AFP83-1
Problem is that it cost you $3 to $5 each and you can only find them at almost every discount auto store in the world. They also fit a very rare car called a Mustang. As these filters are taller than the original Tiger filter one should be able to get more CFM into the carb with less restriction to the flow. I use them on my 351C.
James Barrett Tiger II 351C and others
(Tim) James, This is where dynos come in handy. Back in 1991 we were able to try different versions of airfilters to determine whether different paper elements would work better or is the K&N the way to go. We were checking because we had suspicions about the airflow through an oiled surface. We were running a highly modified 355 cu in Chevy and a 3" K&N with the standard diameter ...about 14"... I was tuning the engine at that time and we found that the 3" tall K&N was sufficient to provide No restriction in power over no airfilter at all as a matter of fact the run produced around 1-2 HP more with the filter assembly ?.!? go figure must have had something to do with the Morroso Filter assembly. We then tried the paper elements and found that ALL of the paper elements decreased HP by an average of 7-8 HP. The best of the paper elements was the Motorcraft filter as it only dropped 4HP. When we stacked the Paper air-filters so that they were 6" high we got similar results to the K&N indicating that it was an air restriction issue and that the paper elements were not as free flowing as the K&N. One other note is that we then tried the K&N stubstack (a molded plastic piece that fits into the Holley 4-barrel) This combination allowed us to go 1 jet size larger and in fact was worth a measurable 10HP. Based on our dyno guys interpretation he saw it all the time and said that the stub stack "corrected" the airflow into the poorly designed choke area and actually increased the volume of air that could enter the carb. This increased airflow slightly leaned out the engine and allowed us to fatten up the jetting slightly resulting in........more power! (This is where we found the 10HP) (Final HP 620 with 580 ft lbs. of torque and the lotus files that this is all stored on, BOB, are still somewhere with my old Amiga computer stuff...I will dig it out someday)
Since those tests I have found little to change my mind about using K&N. It was the very first thing bought for my Tiger when I purchased it 3 months ago. (After plugs, points, cap, rotor, and condensor) The stubstack won't work on the Tiger as you need at least 3" of Filter assembly so I guess the only option is a Barry Grant Sports Claw or mill off the choke horn and polish the are for a smooth transition into the venturi area.
I guess HP costs money and the K&N was/is 10 times more money than the paper elements so depending on your situation you may choose to use the paper elements.
Regards,
Tim Ronak
B382000680
(Steve) (as a response to: "Where do I get a K&N air Filter for a Tiger?") Go BACK to Sunbeam Specialties and ask Rick for the K&N filter for the Tiger (I presume you have a stock set of [air filter] covers). This one will last as long as you do. He also carries paper type replacements, but I have found the K&N to breathe more easily. Have used their products since 1960's. Steve
Subject:
Re: Gas Cap Vent Seal
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999
From: Rob Kempinski
(Rob) (In response to a request from James Barrett: I prefer not to damage the pot metal rivets that hold the gasket/valve? assy to the chrome cover.) Response: Jim, When I replaced my gas cap, I popped out the old rivets, and then used some matching diameter brass rod. I clipped the brass rod a little long and then gently (many small blows) peened over the edge of the brass. So far it seems to work.
Subject:
Re: Exhaust smell from loose PCV hose at back of carb
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999
From: >Mark L.
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