Preface - Theo Smit
The braking system of the Tiger has been the subject of much discussion on the mailing list. The factory system, while adequate when new, and with all components in proper working order and adjustment, quickly shows its limitations when the Tiger is driven aggressively. Many braking system "improvements" increase the raw stopping power of the Tiger, or extend the endurance of the brakes, but these changes require that the driver adopt a different driving style, and this can actually reduce the effectiveness of the brakes in a street driving environment.
It is strongly recommended that you approach braking system modifications with plenty of forethought and planning. What is the intended use for your Tiger? How often will the change you make really improve your stopping ability? Will others who are not necessarily aware of the changes you've made, or how to use them to advantage, drive your car in an uncontrolled environment? How good is your mechanical ability? Really?
This note is not intended to discourage you from doing brake system repairs, upgrades, or modifications, but to reinforce the fact that many of the following contributions focus on using the Tiger as an autocross or road race vehicle, and the authors have come by their brake system and mechanical knowledge through years of experience. If you have any questions that are not answered in the following discussions, put your question to the list.
Wed, 6 Aug 1997
Direct Replacement for Castrol GT: Lucas/Girling Universal Brake Fluid (part number PBF425 or PFB450 for 5 and 10 liters, respectively). Compatible DOT5.1 Brake Fluid: PBF525 (5 l) AND PFB550 (10 l)
NOT COMPATIBLE: Lucas Mineral Oils PFM201 and PFM701.
Lucas DOT 5.1 Brake Fluid Source
Mon, 08 Feb 1999
Autotech Sport Tuning
32240 Paseo Adelanto Unit E, San Juan Capistrano CA 92675
Phone 949.240.4000 Fax 949.240.0450
Just ask for the Lucas Girling DOT 5.1 Brake Fluid Part Number 99.650.5100 It is $21.95 for a liter plus shipping. They specialize in VW stuff but it will work in any DOT 3/4 system. Again it is NOT silicon based. Really is some of the best stuff I have ever used and I highly recommend it. I have 11.3" rotors in the front and 9.8" in the rear and I drive my VR6 hard in some canyons. Since I got the Girling Fluid they have NEVER faded on me. If you order some of this stuff from them let me know.
Water Vapor Absorption in Brake Fluid
Thu, 20 May 1999
While I do not want to make a recommendation of silicone vs Castrol GMLA, I do want to call to your attention that the normal brake fluid will absorb water from the atmosphere whether you are parked or driving. One of the biggest culprits is the method Girling uses to allow the fluid level in the master cylinders of the clutch and brake to change. As you depress the clutch and brake cylinders, it must draw in air to replace the drop in fluid level caused by your displacing it into the brake system. It returns (leaks aside) when you let up the pedal. There is a hole in the top of both caps to let the air in.
American cars have long ago gone to a full rubber seal across the cap top that is built like an accordion. It expands to let the air in, as the hydraulic fluid drops, and contracts when the fluid returns. This rubber like material is not affected by either of the fluids, but does provide a positive barrier against air contact, and the moisture that is in it. This breathing while being used, by the way, could be argued to increase the contact with moisture from driving, versus sitting. The action of breathing with temperature changes and ambient pressure changes may also affect the driven car more.
My recommendation is to see if Jeff, at Tiger Technologies, still has those rubber bellows seals available for the clutch and brake.
Tue, 11 May 1999
I haven't bought any "Red Grease" in a couple of years. It was available from Lucas/Giring under part number SP1230, this is a pack of ten tubes (1"x4" long screw on cap) pack is marked Girling "Grease Kit SP1230" The tubes are marked: Genuine Castrol Girling RUBBER GREASE Specially Prepared by Castrol for GIRLING. I only have one, extra, tube left. May still be available from a Lucas/Girling Dealer.
Tue, 11 May 1999
I surfed the net and found that the dreaded Girling red grease is available from H.D. Rodgers & Sons of Louisana - 318-742-3651 - $3.95 + shipping for a tube of unknown quantity. http://www.hdrogers.com/ Subject:
Carbon/metallic Pads and Shoes
Fri, 5 Sep 97
Parts Sources:
Dale's Restorations at 909-799-2099
Porterfield 800-537-6842 (outside of CA) or 949-548-4470 in California
Cost: $100 / axle
Recommendation from Bob:
"...I would recommend them to just about anyone who does any degree of performance driving, or even if you don't. ...When you think about it, most of us would gladly pay this kind of money to be able to improve acceleration anywhere near as much as these brakes will improve deceleration."
Caveat from Bob:
"I've heard a rumor that Dan Walters had some problem with the Porterfield pads and is recommending another brand. Don't know if it's true or what the circumstances are."
Installation Hint:
Do a little bit of work to bed the new pads in, which includes both hard braking to get them hot plus just some normal driving and one swap of the front pads from side-to-side (I like outside to outside, inside to inside so the rotation is opposite directions as well as being a different surface topology.) This was done because before the swap the left fronts locked up first. Now everything seems really well balanced.
Kevlar Pads and Shoes
Sun, 18 Oct 1998
Parts Sources:
Dale's Restorations at 909-799-2099
Cost: $100 front; $125 rear
MGC Pads on Tigers
Tue, 30 Dec 1997
I have not fitted MGC pads to my tiger but I read in MIKE TAYLOR'S book that David Baraclough ( a succesful Tiger racer from the 80s in England) fitted the MGC pads to his Tiger. { MGC is an mgb with a 6 cyl engine}. If the MGC pads have more surface area and are made of a current material they might be worth investigating. Bob wrote me that the shape of the pad makes a difference.
Servo Part Numbers
Sun, 30 May 1999
| Servo | Rootes | Girling |
| 5" | early 1206368 late 1228657 |
late 64069127 or 64069177 (after 1980) |
| 7" | 1224548 | 64049460 |
| Servo Repair Kit | Rootes | Girling |
| 5" | 5042973 | SP2230 |
| 7" | 5042584 | SP2228 |
| Servo Piston Repair Kit | Rootes | Girling |
| 5" | 5041117 | SP2158 |
| 7" | 5040239 | ? |
Booster FAQ
Tue, 19 Jan 1999
Q: My car has a Girling MK2A brake booster 5".
A: Stock for all but MkII, and re-build kits are about $60. Not an easy job, better use a pro.
Q: Why does the later Tigers have the bigger 7" booster? All the brake components seem to be the same on all Tigers.
A: The 7" MkII Tiger unit was also used on the Alpine Series V, but the actual boost ratio may have been different, don't know. The Tiger unit is 3:1 on the 7" and 2.2 or 2.5:1 on the 5" unit, unsure.
Q: I have located a 7" Lockheed booster. Would it be better to upgrade it to the 7" anyway?
A: There are 5" and 7" Lockheed Units. I've seen some with the rear bolts mounted right to the firewall, without any "kits", but they come in different boost ratios. I think that Sunbeam Specialties units are 2.2:1. Ask Rick.
Q: Would I be better to stick with the original size, 5" but a Lockheed?(I can't seem to locate a new Girling one.(no surprise)
A: Can't yours be rebuilt? I had a MkIIB 7" unit. A more modern design in all respects, and a bolt-in replacement, but there are NO rebuild kits (that is for less than $300 for the kit, if you can find one, and it's complete with screw-on band.) Went with a re-built MkIIA 7". Tight fit on a MkI Tiger, even with the MkII brackets, but works great. Cleaning canister piston bore and hard chrome plating, stainless or brass sleeving of the hydraulics, lots of red goo, and a KNOWLEDGEABLE repair person are worth considering. The biggest leak source is between the piston rod and it's hydraulic unit entry shaft seal. Assuring the condition of this shaft, and hard chrome, wouldn't be so bad an idea either.
Servo Rebuilding Recommendations
Wed, 20 Jan 1999
Paul Reisentz, located in the San Jose area, has a long history to Tiger restoration and rebuilding of Girling servos. His e-mail address is Reisentz, Paul. His business is (was) located right next to Sunbeam Specialties, and he was very active in S.T.O.A. leadership. I have heard that he might be looking at new business interests, so I am not sure he is still doing this work, check with him.
Tiger Tom, back east, has a good reputation, and if he doesn't do them himself, he has the sources. I wouldn't go to just any re-builder, as these units are very peculiar in their vacuum chamber/piston design and need knowledgeable
hands in re-building.
Sat, 23 Jan 1999
In response to some questions on brake boosters from Mike Burd, followed by some advice from the Laifman and others, I will add the following:
Loren Smith at Smitty's Sunbeam in San Diego specializes in rebuilding OEM Girling brake boosters for Sunbeams. He has a good stash of parts for both 5" and 7" sizes and does a super rebuild job. Rebuild price is $250 if you have a core, $300 if you don't. Smitty can be contacted at: (619) 233-7937.
Servo rebuilding details
Thu, 21 Jan 1999
Steve, thanks for recommending me for servo rebuilds. I have done hundreds over the years. I do all the work. They are always concours quality when finished. I have taken a hiatus form rebuilding sevos and "stuff" this year until I finish my shop and screw a Tiger together in time for the trip to SUNI III. The Tiger is presently completely disassembled and requires a lot more engineering work than the typical Tiger rebuild. In other words, I do not have time. Without being pompous, I have never seen anyone build a servo to functional and appearance standards as I do. I have new parts that are not available in the kits or the typical junk spares box. My prices typically run about $325, including the kit, new nuts, bolds and hardware. But costs can get up to $450. I have been able to keep the prices down in the $300 range by using old servos that are rebuildable if a customers is not. Unfortunately, over 50% of the used servos I find today require bore resleeving because of severe pittingÉ..thanks to the acidic conditions created by using Girling fluid. White Post is noted for their re-sleeving. I believe the cost is about $60 per sleeve, but I am not sure. I suspect Paul is very capable of doing rebuilds, as is Dale Akuszewski.
Tiger Tom's take on sleeve material: As a matter of function, it really doesn't matter. Anything is better than the Aluminum and cast iron to prevent corrosion. Brass is popular because it can be machined economically and it is essentially corrosion resistant in hydraulic applications.
Brake Booster Rebuilding Tips
Tue, 26 Jan 1999
I've successfully rebuilt a few, but the rebuild only lasts about 12 years. SS has rebuild kits but CAT lists them too. They also list a brake booster bypass bit. This consists of two unions and a short piece of flared brake pipe. Bend it in a 'U' and bypass the booster by connecting the input and output brake pipes to the booster. Bleed the brakes and hit the road. The brakes work but you have to push hard on the pedal. Other net members have been actively discussing this topic. Anyway the bypass will allow you to leisurely rebuild the booster, powder coat the booster tank etc. Remember to keep everything sanitary. Brake fluid is a great paint remover. If you get on your hands remember to wash before touching any painted surface. SK makes a small circlip pliers that will reach into the booster bore to allow you to remove the circlip. It was the only make I found that worked. All the others including Craftsman were too big to reach far enough into the bore. You'll also need to make the small holding tool described in the rebuild instructions. Remember that the booster tank will be full of brake fluid.
Loosen the screws (dont remove) and crack open the end plate The amount of fluid that will drain out is amazing. Also amazing
is your wife's reaction to having the fluid spill onto her dining room table. Yes indeed brake fluid is a great paint remover, and it removes finishes from table tops too.
According to Tiger Tom all the Lucas rebuild kits after 1974 had the wrong size foam rope in them. The rope fits under the
leather lip of the plunger and forces the leather out to make the seal. If the rope is too big the plunger will hang up. He suggested
trimming the rope until the seal is good. Above all make sure the plunger is free to move in the tank. Otherwise the first time
you put the brakes on they will go on and not release. My fingers are weary. Have fun with the rebuild; follow the instructions and you should be OK.
Tue, 28 Oct 1997
(Excerpted from an email from Tom Hall to Steve Laifman)
SL:
Tom,
Interesting. You don't use an interference fit, and you hone before installation. I would have thought all final interior surfaces would be after the sleeve installation, but then these are "dead ended" bores, and you can't get to the ends (if that is necesssary).
TH:
I tried interference fits first. Too tough in comparison to the locktite method.
SL:
Do you recall the source of the tubing.
TH:
I buy it from a surplus metals yard.
SL:
Who is doing the machining, and are you doing all the stepped bores, including the "pilot valve" in the boosters?
TH:
I am, and no, only the main bore.
SL:
I'm really looking for a turn-key operation. If I can find one, maybe enough of us can get together to make the individual costs lower. I understand there is someone who advertises in Hemmings, but don't have one.
TH:
This would be White Post. They only offer brass sleeves. There is another shop on the west coast that I've seen at street rod shows. As I remember, they are also a Brass only provider.
Master Cylinder Re-sleeve Source
Thu, 19 Mar 1998
Here's the place in CA that does brake cylinder resleeving. I brought up the question about brass v. SS sleeves on the british-cars list a while back and I got a response from some guy who does re-sleeving for a living. My vague recollection is that he was located somewhere around the Goleta area. Anyway, this is the guy who claimed brass was preferable since brass can be bonded to aluminum and SS can't and that an interference fit of a SS sleeve in aluminum could cause the aluminum to crack. Quite frankly I found his reason as well as Apple Hydraulics' suspect. I never got an explanation of why SS can't be bonded to aluminum. My suspicion is that brass is just easier to work with and no one wants the hassle of working with SS. But, hey, I'm just the suspicious type.
Heather & Joe Way
Sierra Specialty Automotive
Brake cylinders sleeved with brass
Quincy, CA
Cylinder Resleeving Source
Address:
Stainless Steel Brake Corp. Clarence NY Ph 800 448 7722
I had a couple of master cylinders from my E-Type re sleeved by SS Brakes and was very satisfied by their workmanship.
Brass Cylinder Re-sleeving source
11/9/98
Found a place that sleeves in brass. Cost about $40 each, depending upon whether there are multiple pieces in the order.
Apple Hydraulic 800-882-7753 (Brass)
10 Nov 1998
Quite a few people seem to be hung up on the stainless sleeve thing. I had Steele Turkleson (sp), machinist persona, ex GT 40 Le Mans fabricator do some brass sleeves for some XKE calipers some 15 yrs ago. When asked about stainless, he said the problem is with sizing & finish. Especially 3?? series.
Brass of the right spec. should be ok, especially on the clutch, though I have no experience with it on my personal cars.
We both know that anything can be achieved with the proper tools & budget.
Stainless Steel Resleeving Source
Wed, 5 May 1999
George Frechette, who advertises in Hemmings, resleeved my servo with stainless steel for $150. With five stepped bores in the Girling servo, that is significantly less than the $45 per bore quoted by Karp's Power Brake. This was about 5 years ago, so he may be a little more expensive now. Also, mine was the first he'd ever done, so maybe he didn't know what he was getting himself into. I am very satisfied with the quality of the work.
(Ed.: in response to grilling by Steve): He actually did all five of my bores. And, you're right, he wasn't familiar with them. I simply sent him the aluminum housing with internals, new seals and a page from the service manual so that he'd sould be certain to get good tolerances for sealing. He told me $150 up front, so maybe that's why I got what I consider a good deal. Yes, you must dismantle and reassemble your own unit. I am a budget restorer, so I had long ago decided that when I could do something myself, I would. I used the Lucas parts sold by SS. Don't know if they're any more or less reliable than Girling parts. George can be reached at (800) 528-5235.
Steve: I called (George Frechette) and found the following information. He only does sleeving, and does not rebuild the units, as my referenced supplier Karp's does. He only did one of the five steps of the bores. He did not seem familiar with the design of the Girling, so did not know how they are stepped. He has done stepped bores, for master cylinders, but the Girling actually has two chambers. In the Girling the piston rod goes through that pesky canister seal, then decrease in diameter for the moving piston rod output bore. Rather long.
The second bore is on top of this one and appears to have four steps, three of which have static or moving seals. The last one appears to be for control valve end shaft penetration clearance. I would guess that 5 is the correct number of wearing surfaces that sequentially step down. This would require boring and honing all, but the wall is pretty thin between the first two parallel bores near the canister. George Frechette currently charges $40/sleeve. Dismantling and rebuilding are your responsibility.
Karp charges around $50/sleeve, with multiple sleeve discount because there is only one initial set-up per bore. He uses only Girling (Lockheed since merger) parts from England, and has a direct source. Hope this information helps someone looking to get a reliable system. Steve
5 May 1999
Karps does superb work at great prices. Highly Recommended.
Stainless Resleeving Thoughts
Thu, 06 May 1999
Roland Dudley:
I can't speak for the servo rebuild, but you might want to do some research regarding re-sleeving of master cylinders with stainless. I've heard, but not personally verified the following:
1. That silicone brake fluid will seep past a stainless sleeve/cylinder interface.
2. That stainless sleeves must be interference fit into the master cylinder and that the aluminum they are made of is not strong enough for this purpose. Another possible issue is the different thermal expansion rates for stainless and aluminum.
Steve:
A good thought, Roland. Although the original user of one firm seems to have had no problem. Besides, not sure about the synthetic in the brakes yet. Using it in the clutch to see what happens. Easier to replace. Most sleevers use brass, which has an even higher thermal expansion, but probably not as high as the aluminum, so maybe it keeps outer contact better. These are made with a friction/press fit, so some expansion still leaves compression between the sleeves and the cylinder.
Bob Palmer:
A few months back I had my buddy in the shop at UCSD (it always pays to have a "buddy" in the shop) sleeve my clutch slave cylinder in stainless steel. So far it has worked fine; i.e., no leakage. I was concerned about the interference fit and thermal expansion too. This is particularly important with the slave cylinder since it sits right over the exhaust collector. I considered having Randal install the sleeve using Locktite to both keep the sleeve in place and prevent fluid seepage. However, I never did more than think about it and it doesn't appear to have been necessary. I'm sure that surface finish is a factor as well as the amount of interference. If there is no sealant between the sleeve and cylinder body, then I do not see any reason why silicone should be any more prone to leak than glycol based fluids. It should only depend on viscosity I think. One reason not to use silicone is because you need some exposure to glycol to get the rubber to swell and seal (see, for example, Ton Hall's post a few months back). I would suggest using Castrol or equivalent for a while and then replace with silicone if you like.
Steve (to Tom)
Have you had any Stainless sleeving experiences? I kind of agree with you about this 'swelling'. I think the seals are already of the hardness, dimensions, and finish for a proper seal. I can't see where a possibly uncontrolled swelling is doing anything more than defeating the accuracy of the original dimensions. Another Urban Legend?
Tom:
Yes I have sleeved some of my own cylinders and had some done for my by a guy that I haven't heard from for 15 - 20 years. Mine were all stainless tube. I started by trying to interference fit stainless but quickly found the tolerances to obtain a precise fit (it stops going in at the bottom of the bore, not .250" before) were very tough to obtain. I,ve since considered a slip fit with locktite a much more practical solution. I even have some Booster sleeves roughed out for this application. I tried to use reamers to obtain the proper bore sizes, but found that the surface finish for long term sealing was not obtainable with that technique. I was going to send them out for honing to size, but that project got buried in more pressing needs and hasn't resurfaced for a couple of years. As to the swelling of the rubber seals, this is a known fact. They are designed with enough allowance that the immersion in glycol produces the final expected working size. This is more than likely empirical data as if you simply plop them into a dish of fluid, they will swell to unworkable dimensions. The bore, piston, and other physical restrictions must play a part of this phenomenon.
Steve, paraphrasing Tom from other conversations:
It has been noted that Tom Hall, frequent technical contributor and knowledgeable person, has some recommendations about using synthetic hydraulic fluids. He believes that the new rubber does not properly fit the bore unless it is swelled by immersion in some regular DOT 3/4 fluid first, to obtain the correct dimensions. He recommends a short soak, before installation, and a liberal use of the Castrol "Red Grease". He believes that this grease may be a form of "hydrogenated", or jelled brake fluid. I imagine that a completely new Lucas/Girling replacement cylinder already has the "Red Grease" applied. The correct rebuild kit should come with a little "soy sauce" package of the Magic Red Grease, which may be sufficient to swell the seal when used in assembly. If not, then the new ones may have to be disassembled for soaking and re-greasing. I have installed new clutch master cylinder and slave (some tricks about the "Universal Replacement Kit" for those who need it are to use your old push rod, as the Universal Kit threaded unit is way too long. Need circlip pliers and CAUTION.
Sun, 8 Feb 1998
Product:
Midland Brake Boosters
Source:
Godman Hi-Performance
5255 Elmore Road
Memphis, Tn 38134
Tech Line 1-901-382-7404
Order Line 1-800-456-2369
Fax Line 1-901-761-9061
Prices:
$287.50 (7") to $340.90 (8")
Brake Servo Sources in Australia
Thu, 28 Jan 1999
For people on this list in Australia the alternative 5" brake servo was made here by PBR, model VC44. This unit is a remote unit that was fitted to locally manufactured cars in the mid-late sixties. This included HR Holden Premiers (GM), Ford Falcons and VC Valiant Chyslers. You can pick good rebuildable units up at swap meets very cheaply (A$ 10-50). This is a reliable unit that can be rebuilt at a fraction of the cost of the original Girling unit.
AP Lockheed Servos
Tue, 4 May 1999
AP Lockheed's recommendation as an equivalent to the Girling servo, part number 64049126, is part number LE10117.
The servo I bought from VB had instructions that had charts on applications and ratios:
Full Kit # - Servo only # - boost
LE10117 - LR18221 - 3.00:1 - Recommended one
LE15741 - LR17792 - 2.30:1 - SS one
NLA - LR17813 - 1.90:1 - VB one
They list the following cars with each:
Recommended one: Alfa Romeo Berlina, Saloon, Spider Veloce & Coupe, AH 3000, Aston Martin Lagonda, Jaguar XK 120, 140 and 150, Ford Corsair 120E, MGC, Rover 80,94,100.
SS one: Ford Cortina, Sunbeam Alpine SII, Sunbeam Rapier, Hillman Husky, Super Minx, Hunter, Avenger, Triumph Spitfire, Triumph Vitesse, 2liter Saloon and Convertible, Cortina Lotus, Reliant Scimitar, Vauxhall, Volvo P1800
VB one: Mini 1275 GT and Mini Cooper S
I will point out however, that they list a fourth servo which has the same boost ratio as the VB one - 1.9:1, that is suggested for:
Hillman Imp, Hillman Minx, TR3, TR4, Sprigets, Mini Cooper (not S or GT), Ford Capri, and MGA.
Rear Brake AdjustersBill
Date Unknown
(Ed.: Oops! I lost the thread on this one, and I'm not sure who the source for this tidbit is.)
Another Tiger-Volvo parts connection- the rear brake adjusters are a match between them.
2/16/98
(Editor's Note: Jim provided this description to a Lister who was trying to figure out how the handbrake components went together, and indicated that the drawing in the manual was inadequate)
Rootes' Drawing
The cable end attaches to the lever on the right brake drum. The end of the housing fits into a 5/16 x 24 1/2" rod which has a cable housing bracket on it 5 3/16" from one end. This end of the rod slides through a hole in a bracket welded to the lower center of the differential housing. the other end of the rod connects to the lever on the left brake drum. the end of the rod has a 90 degree bend that goes through the brake lever. There is a metal snap clamp to retain it. There are a couple of other bends in the rod.
Bend #1: 1/2" offset (down) 2" from center of cable housing clamp.
Bend #2: Starting 13 inches from center of housing bracket angled down for a 1 3/8" total offset at the point that the rod is bent 90 degrees up to connect to lever. Bend #2 is also offset 1" toward the front of the Tiger. The stub 90 degree stub is 5/8" long.
All measurments are from the center of the rod. When you pull the brake handle, both the cable and the 5/16" rod (with cable housing) move ( in opposite directions) and pull both brake levers.
(Ed.: The following pictures are of the handbrake cabling on my Mk 1A.)
 The center linkage. |
|
 The left side where the rod attaches to the drum lever. |
|
 The right side, where the cable clevis attaches to the drum lever. The cable to clevis attachment is above the rear spring. |
Brake (Rear Axle) End float Shims Source
Thu, 16 Apr 1998
The older Jeep Wagoneer (late 60's) has the same type axle setup check with your local Jeep or 4x4 shop.
Rebuilding Brake Calipers - To Split or not to Split
Sat, 13 Jun 1998
LW: The caliper itself is leaking from between the 2 halves, inside upper surface between the two "bridge bolts", as they're called in the service manual. I bolted it back up and tightened the bolts several times in attempts to stop it, eventually going _way_ beyond the 45 & 60 ft/lb suggested, to no avail. It still weeps a bit, just sitting there; no sense pressurizing it merely to see it squirt brake fluid all over my car. I understand you're not supposed to "split" the caliper.
DL:This has been an "interesting characteristic" of Brit brake calipers, they claim that you should not split them as this allows them to save 3 cents in each caliper rebuild kit by not supplying the square cut o-ring that seals the caliper halves. Best of luck on this one, I don't know of a source for the leaking seal, but if you find one old Brit car owners everywhere will love you.
(Editor's Note: I have used four-piston Girling calipers from Volvos on race car projects. We were able to get rebuild kits for these and as far as I recall they did include the square o-rings. So, check with your local Volvo dealer - TS)
Thu, 20 Aug 1998
It was a year ago this month when we broke a brake rotor at an autocross. It was a clean, round break, completely around the circumference of the plane where the rotor mounts onto the hub. As a result, the rotor itself stayed in place. Although the noise it made was real scary, it didnÕt do any other damage except chip a little paint off the inside of the dust shield. And, since the rotor remained captive there on the hub, the pads didnÕt pop out and I didnÕt loose any braking effort at the other three corners. The funny part was that it was a brand new rotor, that hadnÕt been on the car for much more than six or seven months.
My brake rotor story actually begins in December, 1990. I was ordering some stuff from Vicky-Brit., and I noticed that they had brake rotors listed in the catalog. <YA-YA, I know . . . But this was 1990 . . . we didnÕt have no Tiger-list back then . . . And how was I to know they were THE Vicky-Brit.?> Anyway, even though I didnÕt need Õem right then, I knew I would someday, so
I ordered a pair. <$99.50 each, in 1990.> They went on the shelf in the shed.
Then in April of 1995, I was ordering some other stuff from Rick, and I noticed that he had brake rotors listed in the catalog. Even though I didnÕt need Õem right then, I knew I would someday--two Tigers are surely going to need two pairs of brake rotors someday, right?--so I ordered a pair <$67.00 each, in 1995 . . . get the message here boys ÕnÕ girls?> They too went on the shelf in the shed.
Then, in the spring of Õ97, I started fooling around with the brakes on the autocrosser. Bought some of those high-tech carbon-kevlar pads from Dale, and decided that now was the time to swap in a pair of new rotors. The old ones werenÕt all that bad, and could have been turned, but hey, I had new ones on the shelf. So I grabbed a pair off the shelf and went about trying to learn how to drive with the much-improved brakes.
Shortly after that, in preparing the street car for a trip somewhere, I determined it was time to repack the front wheel bearings . . . might as well swap in some new rotors, no? So on went the second pair. (This is sort of related, because at this point, I didnÕt know which pair had come from where. I had a pair of new rotors on the autocrosser, and a pair of new rotors on the street car. One pair had come from Rick, the other from Vicky-Brit. But I didnÕt know which was which.)
(Ed.: So now it's the middle of '97 and Ramon is stuck with a broken rotor on the autocrosser)
The first indication that something wasnÕt quit "right" with the situation was the response I got when I called RickÕs place to order another rotor for the autocrosser. "We donÕt carry new brake rotors any more," she said. "We have some good used ones . . ." "Well, hrumph!!! I already have a shed full of good used ones; I need another new one! . . . And why doesnÕt Rick have Õem any more? Curt has Õem. Yucky-Brit. has Õem. And somebody told me the club in England has Õem? WhatÕs wrong with Rick???"
Now it just so happened that last summer I was in the middle of a complete rebuild of the front crossmember for the Series II soon-to-be pointy-fin-racer. I needed new rotors for it, but nobody listed rotors for the Series I & II Alpines. I was just beginning to think about the possibility of taking a pair of later Alpine/Tiger rotors and turning them down to fit the Series II. If that would work, I might as well get three from Curt--a replacement for the busted one and a pair to modify for the Series II. <That, it turned out, would not work, but thatÕs yet another story.> So, before ordering three rotors from Curt, I decided to call Dan Walters
and see what he had to say about the possibility of using the later rotors on the early car. I opened the conversation with something like "Hey Dan! We broke a brake rotor at Devore last week and I was thinking about . . ." As soon as he heard about the broken rotor, he wanted to know ALL about it. Was it old/new? Where did I get it? How did it break? You know how Dan is; heÕs not like the rest of us--you and me. I see a busted rotor, and I think "Wow! I need another rotor!" Dan sees a busted rotor, and he thinks "Why did that rotor break?"
And the reasons for DanÕs concern:
1. According to Dan, about a year before that, Dale had discovered a cracked brake rotor on Jeff QueenÕs vintage race Tiger. It hadnÕt broken, but it was cracked . . .
2. Then, maybe five or six months before that, according to Dan, Tom Sakaii had broken a rotor while engaged in a vintage race.
Under "investigation," Dan discovered that the rotor on TomÕs car had been machined improperly. The surface on the inside of the "hat" where the bolts go through to mount the rotor onto the hub had been machined out too far. This made the little funnel-shaped surface that joins the disk part of the rotor with the mounting surface too thin. This is most noticeable, Dan said, when you install the things on the hub. On an original/OEM rotor, you have a tough time putting a socket over the bolt because there is hardly enough room between the bolt head and the inside surface of the "hat." This too was a new rotor, and after checking a number of others, Dan determined that all such new rotors were improperly machined in this area. Per Dan, I compared my busted rotor with some used/OEM rotors from the shed, and the bad news is that the diameter of the inside portion of the "hat" where the disk joins the mounting surface is approximately:
o 4.180 inches on a used/OEM brake rotor
o 4.320 inches on a new brake rotor
The difference, nearly an eighth of an inch, substantially reduces the thickness of the material that joins the disk to the mounting surface of the rotor. According to Dan, it was when he called Rick and explained the situation that Rick stopped selling the things. I called Rick to verify the story, and he did. According to Rick, all of the new brake rotors that have been available for a very substantial period of time came from the same supplier. He also said that the supplier claims to have manufactured the rotors EXACTLY to match a brand-new Girling rotor... ??? When I checked the new rotors on the street car, they were identical to the broken rotor on the autocrosser, which means that these things have been on the market since as early as December of 1990, as near as I can tell, and quite possibly earlier, though my records do show that the ones I bought from Vicky-Brit. were back-ordered for a couple of months and didn't actually ship until February of 1991. So, should we go into a "panic" mode if we have these new rotors on our cars? I don't know. All of the failures I've heard of have been in competitive driving situations--haven't heard of one breaking on a street car. I replaced 'em on the autocrosser with resurfaced originals, but I still have 'em on the street car . . . Yes we still drive the street car--drove it to Pleasanton to have a peek at Bo's really neat-o garage a couple of weeks ago--but do have a funny feeling about aggressively Tigerin' down a twisty mountain road with em. . .
The new rotors bear casting numbers of "BDC48C" and "R1" (or perhaps "RI") 180 degrees apart on the inside "hat" surface.
Brake proportioning has been a recurring and vigorously debated topic on the Tiger list. For the uninitiated, brake proportioning is adjusting the balance between the front and rear brake effectiveness. The intent of this is to set up the car such that all four brakes start to lock simultaneously. The conditions under which tires lock are, of course, dependent on a lot of factors besides the brakes themselves, such as the road condition, the tire type and size used, and the front/rear weight distribution of the vehicle (which is dependent on the driver, the amount of fuel carried, the load in the trunk, etc.). Then there is the braking system itself: The pad and shoe materials used, the hydraulic piston diameters in the master cylinder(s) and in the caliper and drum cylinders, and the overall condition of the discs and drums.
On the Tiger, the brake system is a "single" system; one master cylinder, which is activated by the foot pedal, provides hydraulic pressure to all four brakes. The system is assisted by an in-line vacuum booster or 'servo'
which increases the hydraulic pressure to the brake cylinders.
In a single brake system, equal line pressure is provided at all four brakes; the mechanical force F (pounds) generated by each caliper or drum piston is the product of the line pressure P (psi) and the piston area A (square in.): F = P x A. Therefore, increasing the piston area in the calipers for the front brakes would have the effect of increasing the force applied to the front brakes and therefore shift the brake balance forward. If it is desired to shift the brake balance rearward, the rear pistons can be enlarged. Of course it is only possible to make this kind of adjustment if several sizes of drum and caliper cylinders are available. It is often more practical to set up the system such that the rear brakes will lock up first, and then to install a device to limit the pressure to the rear brakes such that the front and rear brakes lock up at the same time. These pressure limiters are commonly called proportioning valves, although that's not really what they do; the brake pressure is the same in the front and rear systems up to the point where the pressure limiter activates; from that point on, the rear brake pressure is constant, while the front brake pressure is still proportional to the pressure applied to the pedal.
More advanced proportioning schemes require that the front and rear systems be split into two independent hydraulic systems, either by using a tandem master cylinder or two separate master cylinders. This allows the use of two different master cylinder piston sizes for the front and rear systems; the ratio of the areas of these pistons would then determine the pressure proportion between the front and rear systems. Again the ability to experiment with different ratios is limited by the availability of master cylinders with different piston areas, although the range of possibilities is increased since both the master and slave piston sizes can be changed.
A further refinement is to add a mechanical force proportioning linkage between the pedal and the master cylinders. This type of arrangement (such as marketed by Tilton, Wilwood, and others) allows the balance ratio between the front and rear systems to be adjusted continuously. These pedal assemblies can be fitted to the Tiger but require a strong box structure for attachment.
Using Volvo proportioning valves as an adjustable rear brake proportioning valve.
Tue, 20 Oct 1998
If you find that the rear brakes lock up too soon, then it may be beneficial to install a proportioning valve in the rear brake line.
I have found the Volvo ones to be easy to work with. The early / middle 70's volvos had two per car, one for each rear brake. Take it, clean it, and replace the internal spring with one that's a little lighter, then remove the adjuster and weld onto it a piece of 1/4" round bar stock to make a T-handle. Screw the adjuster back in, install the whole thing in the rear brake line (within arm's reach) and adjust the balance to your needs.
Brake Accumulators (Pressure Pulse Dampers)
Tue, 20 Oct 1998
SL - While on braking, I have come into possesion of an early NOS "ABS/Trax" anti-lock braking system for single master cylinder cars. This system uses very high tech polished/anodized aluminum sealed units. Not cheap manufacture. One is meant to "T" into the front disk system, and the other on the rear disk line. Presumably set for disk-front/drum rear there are no electronics involved. It does not sense wheel lock-up and relieve braking It appears to contain a high pressure gas on one side of a piston, with a spring/valve control to "chatter" the braking in an on/off mode. Like pumping the brakes 1,000 times a minute. Anyone with any experience using something like this? The manufacturer is not in business and there seem to have been more than one .
TH - Out of the past and off the back of my "brake stuff" shelf comes the "Safety Braker". At least 20 years of NOS dust and from a company called G & O out of San Rafael, CA. As you describe a hydraulic accumulator with a sealed piston chamber. Lots of Tigers in the SF Area used to run them. I believe that they intended primarily to limit the shock peak of rapid brake application to make the brake system easier to modulate (avoid instant lockup). Factory recommended two, one front system and one rear system (why not double your sales). Never did install and try this piece. Went instead to dual masters with an adjustable balance bar in about 1980, but that's another story.
BP - Regarding the ABS/Trak unit, how is the modulation accomplished? I could see this hurting rather than helping, depending on how it's implemented. It's pretty hard to beat an experienced foot, although the full on sensor modulated system is hard to beat. As for the "Brake-Guard" system you referred to, the way I read it it's identical to the Safety Braker; even looks the same except for fancy anodized colors. It's totally passive - says so explicitly. It tries to eliminate the modulation created by a run-out or out-of-round problem. Do I understand you correctly that you think the Brake-Guard produces modulation? That would be quite a trick in a passive unit. (Where would the energy come from?) Maybe you could strap one of those novelty store vibrators to the bottom of your right shoe. Have it pressure activated so when you apply the brakes it modulates the pressure. Maybe incorporate the vibrator into a special driving shoe. Know a good patent lawyer?? You could even turn it on once in a while to massage your foot. You know how, especially the right foot, tends to get kind of cramped after three or four hours of steady driving. This could be a real cure. Then, of course, there's cruise control, but somehow that seems out of place in a Tiger. Finally, I think it's just me who occasionally mentions the Alpine versus Tiger rear slave cylinder issue. And yes, it is an improvement - a big one. But not as big as going to rear disks though. Maybe if I'd tried the Carbon/Kevlar linings on the drum brakes, I might have opted to keep them.
Stainless Steel Brake Tubes
Wed, 31 Mar 1999
(Ed.: This is in response to the question, Has anyone used the Tiger stainless brake line set by Classic Tube (http://www.classictube.com)?)
I have not used the stainless steel brake tubes that they make, considered them, Yes. I have seen their products and they are excellent, I just think their prices are high. Maybe they will discount? The other reason I hesitate is there are numerous variations of tube lengths and configurations for Sunbeams. If Classic Tube does not have your configuration on file they can not set up their CNC bender. You would have to send them your brake line tubes to get the right configuration. You could remove your lines, measure them and give them that info plus the type of fittings, then you can bend them yourself. The other choice is to buy the tubing in bulk, 25' or 30' coils, plus the fittings so you can bend and flare them yourself. Lauren and Paul Fix own the company, nice people, call them or E mail them and see if they can help you.
Thu, 20 May 1999
The dual master cylinder number I am using is 4739170
It came from Pep Boys but I think that number will also work at NAPA.
On Master Cylinder Bore Size
Fri, 22 Jan 1999
On the brake issue an old mechanic once told me that if you want better brakes then you put on a bigger master cylinder. So the earlier alpine brake master cyl. would make your tiger brakes work much better, without the stupid booster.(because it has a bigger bore) Or you can go to an aftermarket master cylinder with a larger bore. "Pegasus Racing" has them in Girling and tilton. (pegasus@execpc.com) email them for a free catalog.
(Editor's Note:) Enlarging the bore size (piston area) of the master cylinder gives the pedal a firmer feel because it effectively reduces the mechanical advantage of the brake pedal; more fluid gets moved for an equivalent amount of pedal stroke. Increasing the bore size AND removing the booster would result in greatly increased pedal effort compared to the stock brake system, but the pedal would feel hard as a rock. Depends on what you like and on the size of your right quadriceps.
Wed, 2 Jun 1999
This swap was done about 10 years ago when I restored the Tiger. You'll notice that I did the layout when the car was in bare metal (Redi- Stripped). This allowed me to move things around and bend and test fit without scratching fresh paint. Once I was satisfied with the set up, it was removed to await installation later.
The Booster and all required fittings were purchased from Godman Performance. They are regular advertisers in "Street Rodder" magazine and pleasant and competent people to deal with.
As you see in the pictures, I had to make up upper and lower mounting brackets. The top is actually two lower booster brackets from my pile of Alpine parts that were cut and rewelded to fit, The lower mount, which fits on the original booster's lower mount location on the body, was made from @ 1/2" wide steel strip. It's not rocket science! Anyone with a tape measure, a vice and a large hammer should be to fabricate the 2 brackets. In an old 1993 CAT newsletter, there's an article on this swap. The author recycled the original Tiger round band on top and didn't bother with a lower bracket. Hey, whatever floats your boat.
As far as special parts, etc. you willl need to buy the two 90 degree "banjo" fittings from Godman to attach the brake lines to the booster. I think the tiger has 7/32" dia. brake line, but please check before ordering. Also, you'll need the anti backfire check valve for your vacum supply line. The folks at Godman's were exceptionally helpful in walking me through what I needed.
I bought a "double flare" tool at a local auto parts supply house. Never use a plumbers single flare tubing tool on brake lines. The tool ( a Snap On) cost me $35 10 years ago, but it's worked flawlessly since and has paid for itself many times over- it'll do several sizes of tubing, right up to fuel lines. I also bought a good tubing bender, which made the nice neat bends you see in the pictures. The tubing, and fittings are standard "Kant Kink" brand sold at just about every auto parts store.
Like I said, it is a really obvious swap, nothing really tricky about it. The Midland unit (make sure you buy the smaller of the 2 units available) is dimensionally nearly identical to the original Girling unit. It fits much better than the generic Girling unit that the parts suppliers are trying to pawn off as a replacement part. I got one of those from Vicky Brit- took one look at it a said NO WAY! Much too large!
 |
 Closeup of the top mounting bracket. |
 Finally, a clear picture of the front brake line routing. |
 Everything reinstalled after painting. |
Hydraulics
Subject:British "Bubble Flares"
Date: 07 Dec 1998
From: Steve Laifman
'Beamers,
As you know, the British hydraulic lines (with a few peculiar exceptions) are "bubble flares" on the tube ends, rather than the US standard "double flares". To clarify, for those unfamiliar with these, the US system uses a two step flaring tool that 'bulges' the tubing with a special fitting on the screw end of the flaring tool, then removes the special end and uses a tapered end to fold the bulged tubing into a doubled "V" shape. Typically the process looks like this:
1) Hydraulic tube: =============== (sleeve nut left off because I can't find the right ASCII alphabet keys {9->)
2) First step in process: ================<>
3) Finished flare: =====================<< {with the "<<" joined at the outside edge as one folded piece, of course.}
The British process seems to stop with something like step 2). The outer sleeve nut pushes both of these into the threaded hole, with the same thread form, and the outer sleeve nut appears about the same, with an indent for the tube-side flare to fit. The hole in the master cylinder, brake, block, etc., it's going into, however, is very different. The American one has a "<" internal shape to accept the "======<<", while the British female connection has a projection like this ">" on the bottom, to meet the outer "bubble flare". Straight tubing, with "bubble ends" is available from Sunbeam Specialties and Classic Sunbeam, so you can replace your lines. What, however, would you do if you needed to use US hydraulic components (non-stock), or maybe US tubes, or even AN fittings? Some have just used a bigger wrench. Not good!
A firm that handles specialized hydraulics, including AN fittings, adapters, hose, etc. has a web page, and I wrote them an inquiry. They provided the following is their reply, but I do not understand why they need to know if it's for a brake or a clutch??:
To: Steve Laifman
From: Paragon Perfomance
Steve,
After getting the terminology squared away, we are familiar with the fittings and can do the assemblies using adapters. We do need to know, however, what the application is - brake lines or clutch lines. Of course, if you can give us the exact assembly configurations or send us the stock lines, we can evaluate them and get back to you with a competitive quote.
Paragon Performance http://www.paragonperformance.com 1-800-270-0333
Subject: Re: Bubble Flares
Date: 9 Dec 1998
From: Roland Dudley
Reply to: Doug Mallory
Subject: Re: Bubble Flares
>I have bought both tools. One makes an inverted double flare and the >other makes a "English bubble". The adapters that make the bubble are >not the same. >Doug
I don't think there is anything particularly English about bubble flares. They are also referred to as ISO flare and I believe they conform to some international standard. J.C. Whitney sells ISO flaring tools too. No I didn't buy one. The brakes on my Cobra have a combination of bubble and double flares. The bubble flares are on the "distribution" end- that is out of the master cylinders and into and out of the Tees. The caliper ends have double flares where they couple to the flex lines. The system is entirely Girling and was installed at the AC Factory in 1963. When I redid the brakes I found that most auto parts stores stocked lines in varying length with ISO flares and fittings at both ends. The diameter of these lines and the fittings on them are identical to the original lines on my car, BTW. My brake overhaul included switching to Aeroquip flex lines with AN fitting. I bought new steel lines of the correct length with ISO flares and fitting on both ends and cut one end off. Since I don't have an AN flaring tool, I had a local shop flare the cut ends for me. Here's how they did the double flares: first they made single AN flare (37.5 degrees), next they used an SAE double flaring die to start the second flares, then they finished the flares with the AN tool. Roland
Subject: Clutch Master Cylinder
Re: Clutch Master Cylinder
Date: 28 Dec 1998
From: Steve Laifman
To: W John Gardiner
John,
Just got through replacing that cylinder. Bought the latest Girling (Lucas) complete assembly for the Tiger. Unfortunately, it turns out that Lucas is trying to reduce the quantity of stocking numbers it carries, and has made a single part number applicable to many models. Mine came with a 'universal' push rod and rubber covers already installed firmly, with a crimp band on the end, and a threaded push rod with a threaded clevis and locking nut. Unfortunately, there is no way in the world this will fit on a Tiger pedal, it's much too long at it's shortest position. The old one piece unit must be re-used. So, off comes the fancy crimped boot clamp, the rubber boot is slid off of the push rod, before the "universal clevis" is installed. The circlip is removed so the push rod/piston pusher can be removed. The original Tiger push rod is one-piece with the clevis and piston pusher, and the old rubber was pretty sad. The new rubber has to be attached to the old push rod. The only question being which end of the rod, clevis or washer, is to be forced through that small hole? I went for the circular washer end, as it was at least smooth and symmetrical . Needed a little hydraulic fluid, as a lubricant, and by careful pushing and stretching that small hole over that big washer, the new rubber went on. I put a tie wrap around the rubber to hold it on to the housing, but I doubt it was required. The secondary rubber band was left off for lack of room. Seems to work OK. Lots of stretch in new rubber. I didn't believe them when I was told the new shifter boot would go over the shift knob and reverse gate fingers, either. It does. Hope this helps. Remember, it's always a good practice to lubricate it, before you try to jam it in a tight fit.
Subject: Re: Resleeve Girling Hydraulics
Date: May 1999
From: Ronald Karp
Organization: Karp's Power Brake
To: Steve Laifman
Steve Laifman wrote:
> Hi,
> Just got your web address through our Sunbeam Tiger list. I have been
> thinking of doing this for some time, but have only found brass
> available. Not sure why.
> Our hydraulics, in the Sunbeam Alpines and Tigers, are Girling. Major
> corrosion problems, inherent in materials and design, are a continuing problem.
> Need information on stainless sleeving of brake master cylinder. Do you
> have any experience on re-building Girling MkIA servo's? These are the
> ones with a large Piston, instead of a rubber diaphragm, and were used
> in the Alpines, Tigers, and some Big Healys? The servo has multiple
> stepped bores, plus a major weakness in the shaft seal from the vacuum
> piston to through to the hydraulics. Either the seal is weak, or the
> rod needs polishing/chroming/?
> > If you give me your prices for Tiger and Sunbeam hydraulics, whether you
> re-build or just sleeve, I will publish them to our world-wide group for
> you.
>
> Steve
Steve,
Yes we can resleeve your aluminum and cast iron master cylinders with 304 stainless. The cost is $45.00 per sleeve. We do rebuild the Girling servos. The price is $50.00 labor plus sleeving and kit. We rebuild all four models, diaphragm and piston types. We have been using Girling kits only. I purchase them overseas because I can't find any more in the US. If you have anyone who can supply Lucas parts we would be interested. We can do the step board aluminum cylinders but they can get expensive if you do all three bores. We have been putting sleeves in the area for the shaft seal. It seems to tighten up the seal and makes it tighter than original, but not tight enough to hold the shaft from returning. That is a weak area on those servos. Chroming the shaft runs about $50.00. Most of the time the shaft does not need to be chromed if we put the sleeve and shrink the seal.
Ron
Subject: Girling Red Grease
Date: 11 May 1999
From: Pete Stanisavljevich
Organization: Cox Target Media
To: Steve Laifman
Steve,
I surfed the net and found that the dreaded Girling red grease is available from H.D. Rodgers & Sons of Louisana - 318-742-3651 - $3.95 + shipping for a tube of unknown quantity.
http://www.hdrogers.com/
Subject:
Re: Re-built Hydraulics
Date: 12 May 1999
From: Steve Laifman
To: Frank Bonifazi
Frank,
In my opinion, since the purpose is to remove moisture and dirt, and hydraulic fluid LOVES moisture, a flush 'till clear, and then some more, ought to be more than adequate. There are these new bleeder screws with built in check valves, that allow you to bleed you brakes without locking/unlocking those screw with every pump. They are about $10/pair. You need two for the front discs, one for the rear, and one for the clutch.
Steve
Subject: Neoprene for fuel & hydraulic lines
Date: 22 Aug 1999
From: Daniel S. Eiland
To: Tigers@autox.team.net
Hi Listers,
Just got back from Home TeaPot, Oh sorry that's Home Depot, and while looking for a part in the plumbing dept I found a white bag that said "Gasket Material." Upon closer examination it turns out to be 2"W X 36"L X 1/16"Thick Neoprene. Can easily be used to replace your old ruyPELUyOa:Dy9,ju
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